Cat calling

[Cocklodger]

I'm sure this one has been done to death, I don't frequent the board often tbh.
now I hate catcalling. I'm sure every woman has or will experience it. Its not pleasant. It makes me angry and sometimes it scares me,
But today I've seen a post on FB (with someone of a similar view point to me) being ripped into, because
''Its just a compliment''
she's a ''fun sucker''
''I bet she would've REALLY just asked for his number''... Those comments came from women.
Now I, being me decided to defend this person and found the same comments hurled at me. I've now just left it because I've gotten to the point where I can no longer even try to come up with a coherent argument. I have also received personal insults(about my appearance and the fact I'm obviously a bit fat since I was recently pregnant baby under 2wks old)
i just didn't realize how acceptable it was, I genuinely thought it was wildly noted as pretty fucking annoying (If I'm being generous)
I don't even know what to say.
Wtf is wrong with people?
Can someone please reassure me that I'm not wrong? I know I sound bloody pathetic but for some reason finding out how acceptable it is has actually quite scared and shaken me a lot....

Both sides go to war for the gains. The fact that hundreds of thousands of men are considered collateral damage, just shows how strong that imperative is.

If you can link to the stats that show a racial bias for cat calling please do.

But, yet again, women are not responsible for their own assaults, so I don't see how it would help.

Suggesting women do not have relationships, on the basis that it is often with in those relationships that sexual abuse occurs, blames women for male violence AGAIN.

So, lesbian separatists are foul victim blamers then ?

Tbh I think growapear will go round and round in circles on this in order to make it women's problem to sort out male violence and make it seem as if we are unreasonable to expect men to take collective responsibility for it. It is much more reasonable to expect women to change their behaviour and make women collectively responsible for handling bad male behaviour. God forbid that this should be acknowledged and tackled on a societal level. In fact I'd just take acknowledged at the moment. As we can see from this thread even that isn't the case.

"If females were the stronger of the two sexes, I had always thought our society would largely be switched around." Well apart from the fact that we aren't the stronger and probably never will be (by strength I assume you are talking physical strength as defined by men), why would you think that?

I don't think women's brains are "wired" differently (I don't think any brains are wired). I think we have different experiences because of our sex and even if we didn't live in a patriarchy we'd still have different experiences from men. For example we would still be the life givers/bearers.

And no lesbian separatists aren't foul victim blamers. They are making a choice for themselves. And it is a valid choice. Stop twisting people's words.

I'm getting a bit bored of the "Women, it's up to you to not put up with cat calling" argument.

There's a very good reason women don't are afraid of men who cat call andit's all to do with self preservation

To claim otherwise is to simply ignore the cold hard facts.

Wow, pear, you are twistier than an m&s cheese twist, and far less delicious.

I'm done responding to you here.

For clarity: God forbid that male violence should be acknowledged...

if we are unreasonable to expect men to take collective responsibility for it.

I'll just be accused of twisting things again - but what's the point in feminism if the only ones who have agency to do anything about is men, even the men who don't consider themselves in anyway responsible for violence ?

And as for saying that avoiding entering into voluntary relationships with men is a perfectly valid course of action if you believe men are a grave threat to women, that this is some how a cruel thing to say, I don't get it.

Well this went sideways very quickly not rtft yet but growapear just consider we haven't likely been on the receiving end of catcalling to the extent most women posting on here have. We can't really comment on how they should/shouldn't react.

On the topic of catcalling freedom of association is a basic human right. Implicit in that right is the freedom NOT to associate.

To give you a fraction of perspective we all find cold calling, market researchers in the street, people approaching to prosleytize this or that religion. Multiply that irritation by adding in someone passing comment on your personal appearance with a healthy dose of fear/caution as these people are almost all bigger than you.

If you want women to be vital and energetic participants in society, and I assume you do. How women are treated in the public space is of crucial importance to everyone. You can throw at me we (as men) are technically more at risk of physical assault from men. However we are at less risk of sexual assault/ rape. Additionally and only speaking as myself I have not been raised to fear anybody so when I'm out and about I enjoy a greater freedom in practice.

Yes we all perform our own risk analysis to keep ourselves safe, so may avoid certain streets at certain times, but the range of options I have as to where I go and when is much much larger than it is for the average woman.

We need to examine this and unpack it rather than try to steamroll the discussion at the "is it even a problem?" Stage. Yes it is let's try and fix it. Start a new thread about men dying in wars. Yes that sucks but it's not relevant here.

Do you really think women and specifically feminists aren't doing anything about male violence? Really?

It just doesn't tend to involve making women change their behaviour.

You didn't say it was a valid course of action (lesbian separatism) you asked us why weren't telling women that is what they should be doing.

Plus, I may have a slightly different take than Datun on this (after all we aren't a collective hive). I do think it is a valid course of action and should be an option for all sort of reasons beyond male violence. That doesn't mean to say I would blame women for not taking that option - as that is what it is, a choice. It would also be highly hypocritical of me. But if you want to blame women for not avoiding men then fill yer boots.

However, I suspect you didn't insert lesbian separatism into the thread because you wanted an honest discussion about it. Rather, more of Twisty McTwistyface.

Dervel

I wasn't defending cat calling or in anyway suggesting that women who are cat called are to blame for it. Of course it isn't their fault, but it's not mine or yours either just because we happen to be men. The rest of my posts are an extrapolation of this and agree, nothing to specifically to do with cat calling. It mystifies me that women who apparently feel the way posters on here do about men, would voluntarily have anything to do with them.

Racism isn't my fault either. But I am part of the white class and it is up to me to not perpetuate it and to help change society to remove that oppression. It is also my responsibility not to argue with black people when they tell me how racism makes them feel or tell them what they should be doing about it.

It is called recognising your privilege. And I don't presume to think I manage it successfully all the time (or possibly even a lot of the time) I would never come on to a thread where black people are talking about street harassment and tell them what they should be doing to counteract that behaviour.

grow

I'm married (to a man) and have only raised boys. I have fantastic relationships with all my male colleagues. The people I know aren't violent, but most of sexual violence is committed by males as a class on women. It's not difficult.

And as for saying that avoiding entering into voluntary relationships with men is a perfectly valid course of action if you believe men are a grave threat to women, that this is some how a cruel thing to say, I don't get it.

Not cruel just idiotic.

Also, what is a lesbian separatist?

Is it something to do with the avoidance of men altogether, not just in a sexual relationship? Sorry, I don't get out much.

(and if it is, it's sounding very tempting at the moment...)

Ok lookit implying women aren't doing anything about it is fallacious. They have named something they don't like and put it in the public space for discussion. However there comes a point when they knock the ball over to our side of the court. At the moment you're just kind of watching the ball sail over your head hit the ground and are staring blankly at it and declaring it's not your problem. If you don't want to play feminist tennis then fine get off the court (the boards).

If you don't catcall women it's a matter of astounding obviousness it's not your fault. However saying it out loud makes the discussion about you. Which is why people get frustrated with you. What can we do as men to correct this? We could examine the language we use when discussing women in all male groups. Would that be a good start do you think?

Cos those attitudes when taken out into the wild so to speak WILL cause women to be objectified and and treated poorly. Even if we're not the precise men that do it. I'm also not accusing you of actively colluding in this, but letting it get said unchallenged certainly doesn't stop it either.

An axiom I hold to is that no one can be free until we are all liberated. I just want you consider a world where the maximum number of people achieve their potential. Just take a moment to think where the human race could go we're that the case. Feminism isn't the be all and end all, but it's one of the biggest cogs that keeps getting stuck. Considering women are half the population it's the biggest single change we could make that could make the biggest difference to the whole running more smoothly.

It's incredible that a thread on street harassment, faced regularly by women and girls and perpetrated by men, has been turned into "not all men" (actually it probably isn't). The men who don't harass women should challenge the ones who do and challenge a culture which presents women and girls as nothing but sexual objects who exist for men to judge and use. That would probably be more constructive than arguing with women and girls who live in this society and diverting a thread about our experiences. Unfortunately men and boys tend to listen more to other men so men staying silent on street harassment and misogyny in general further enforces the views of those who perpetrate it that it's acceptable.

Scallops

You didn't say it was a valid course of action (lesbian separatism) you asked us why weren't telling women that is what they should be doing.

I didn't say you should "tell" anyone to do anything actually, I only asked why you would not let women (maybe even your friends) know that in your opinion a specific course of action is advisable, when you believe that to be the case. It is not very very easy to avoid having sexual relationships with men all together. Simple. I mean you're happy to tell me what you think I should be doing why would you not also tell a women ? You're the one making the leap that anyone who doesn't follow any advice you might give should be "blamed" if they didn't agree with you, and yet I'm the one who twists things.

Dervel
Ok lookit implying women aren't doing anything about it is fallacious.

And yet implying that (all) men aren't doing anything about it and just need to get their "shit together" is not ?

We could examine the language we use when discussing women in all male groups. Would that be a good start do you think?

"We" ? I dunno what language you use in groups where you talk about women, but if you hear someone say something you don't like feel free to call them out on it. How is that going to stop men grooming young girls or shouting sexual abuse at school girls ?

Datun

I'm not really sure what a lesbian separatist is actually, I gather some sort of living apart from men is involved, but I will hold my hands up here and admit I know little other than that.

IAmAmy

Unfortunately men and boys tend to listen more to other men so men staying silent on street harassment and misogyny in general further enforces the views of those who perpetrate it that it's acceptable.

Now you see - I don't think this is true. If I go up to a group of local youths up to no good, and ask them whether they wouldn't mind refraining from their current endeavours, and my wife does the same, my opinion is that they will listen to neither of us, although they have more chance of listening to a women as they have more respect for her actually than they do for me. I can tell you that only one of us it going to get a smack in the face, and it isn't her. This idea you have that men can influence other men for no other reason than that they are men actually just shows that you are somewhat sexist and expect that "men" are sexist as well. It's part of a desire to blame all men for some men being arseholes.

It is not very very easy to avoid having sexual relationships with men all together

Argh - is meant to say it IS very very easy to avoid having sexual relationships with men all together....no need to to even live apart from them.

grow

Obviously, confronting on unruly kids in the street is dodgy for anyone.

But having a talk in a school in PSHE on why catcalling is harassment, would get listened to more if it was a man telling the boys. The credibility of his opinion will be higher than a woman's.

Actually I implied nothing of the sort. I explicitly stated that some men say abhorrent things and some men quietly stay silent. The implication being there aren't enough men challenging it to correct the behaviour.

I find it interesting you have no rebuttal to the rest of my post, but leapt rather gleefully on a few lines (and failed to read it properly to boot!) so you could try and justify a zinger that I had implied something I hadn't just to cling to some sort of parity in our rhetoric.

You admit catcalling is a problem, but seemingly want to contribute fuck and all in roughly that order to the discussion of how to correct it, besides a lot of redundant sophistry about how a bunch of folk who DO want to see it gone are doing it wrong.

So please do enlighten us, what are the root causes of catcalling? What steps can be taken to stop it?

Don't worry I suspect you won't engage in answering these questions in any meaningful way, but grasp as some line you feel you can attack, or failing that you'll just dislike the tone of my post. It's so nauseatingly predictable some days.

And as if the derailment of the thread wasn't enough, a man now accuses me of being sexist in a conversation about street harassment of women and girls. Interesting how everything you've said you present as indisputable fact but show no concern for all the instances of street harassment reported or any interest in stopping it, only want to derail and argue with women. You have the luxury of sitting back and proclaiming "only some men do it, I don't so what's the problem?" Women and girls don't. When I walk down the street most men don't harass me but I'm always on edge and fearful because some do. So the men who don't can live blissfully in the knowledge they don't and pat themselves on the back whilst women and girls have to live with it day after day because of the ones who do. Then we have to temper how we talk about it because of the men who don't perpetrate it being upset at our expecting men to stop it.

For what it's worth I will apologise on his behalf. I find your comments insightful and they are very much welcome. I wouldn't understand the scale of the problem otherwise. I'm hearing you loud and clear.

Thank you Dervel.

You're right derv.

Frankly I think Amy's commentary here is very relevant indeed. Young girls bear the brunt of the catcalling, and they are the ones who are harmed by it most.

Spreading the word and always calling it street harassment is a start.

I honestly think men in general have zero idea of what it feels like, how pervasive it is. How it accounts for the direction you take from the station, where you walk the dog, booking taxis in advance, re-thinking an outfit, sitting next to or near a woman on the bus, the discomfort when everyone else gets off the train leaving you and one man alone, parking under a street lamp, etc. We do it almost on autopilot. Every day.