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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Cat calling

515 replies

Cocklodger · 14/11/2016 13:36

I'm sure this one has been done to death, I don't frequent the board often tbh.
now I hate catcalling. I'm sure every woman has or will experience it. Its not pleasant. It makes me angry and sometimes it scares me,
But today I've seen a post on FB (with someone of a similar view point to me) being ripped into, because
''Its just a compliment''
she's a ''fun sucker''
''I bet she would've REALLY just asked for his number''... Those comments came from women.
Now I, being me decided to defend this person and found the same comments hurled at me. I've now just left it because I've gotten to the point where I can no longer even try to come up with a coherent argument. I have also received personal insults(about my appearance and the fact I'm obviously a bit fat since I was recently pregnant baby under 2wks old)
i just didn't realize how acceptable it was, I genuinely thought it was wildly noted as pretty fucking annoying (If I'm being generous)
I don't even know what to say.
Wtf is wrong with people?
Can someone please reassure me that I'm not wrong? I know I sound bloody pathetic but for some reason finding out how acceptable it is has actually quite scared and shaken me a lot....

OP posts:

Datun · 15/11/2016 17:23

amy is right grow. Just because you don't do it, and don't associate with men who do it, and your wife doesn't get it doesn't mean it isn't there. And you're upset, because you think that you are somehow being held responsible for all the men who DO do it.

The more encouraging response would be 'bloody hell, I never thought of it like that. That is absolute shit. I'll do my damnedest to call it out if ever I do see it'.

Datun · 15/11/2016 17:27

IAmAmy. I've been wanting to say this but ages, but I'm struggling not to sound patronising. You are a brilliant poster. I can't believe you're only 16. Your conviction is admirable. Your logic is undeniable. And your determination to stick with the point is impressive.

YonicProbe · 15/11/2016 17:27

Thought you were datun, just got a bit confused!

growapear · 15/11/2016 17:29

You minimising it and creating arguments on this thread is exasperating and dismissing these experiences is just unpleasant.

Can you give me an example of where I dismissed someone's experience please Amy ?

"well done to you all, pats on backs all round for not being misogynists"

Please can you give me an example of where you thought I deserved a pat on the back for not being a misogynist or knowingly associating with men who hate women Amy ?

This is getting somewhat boring.

Datun · 15/11/2016 17:32

YonicProbe. No worries. Have I said anything wrong tho? Happy to be educated.

Datun · 15/11/2016 17:34

grow. Women, and feminist men, can spot a dissenter a mile off. I realise you might be just having your eyes opened, but have you watched the TED talk? Seriously - at least do that.

IAmAmy · 15/11/2016 17:35

Datun thank you very much and that's not patronising at all! I'm lucky to have good friends I can discuss these things with and a school which nurtures that, and being able to post here and talk about feminism with so many women is great. I'm restricting my immature side to settings away from this board

growapear · 15/11/2016 17:35

And you're upset, because you think that you are somehow being held responsible for all the men who DO do it

But I am being held responsible for it.

venusinscorpio · 15/11/2016 17:37

Grow, I think Dervel was right on the money when he said you have a lack of empathy. You are doing a classic notallmen.Your wife's view on street harassment does not cancel out other women's views. Women are not a hive mind. The point about street harassment is that it is unsolicited and many women hate it, it makes us feel objectified and intimidated. That should be enough for any decent man to want to help.

growapear · 15/11/2016 17:37

And saying that my wife "doesn't get it" but you all do, now who's being dismissive ?

venusinscorpio · 15/11/2016 17:38

It's quite common for women to throw other women under the bus for a variety of reasons, sadly. I don't presume that's what she is doing, she's entitled to her view on it.

IAmAmy · 15/11/2016 17:39

growapear you derailing a thread about street harassment to centre on men's feelings is getting boring? It got boring ages ago.

You're dismissing experiences by your comment on your wife's reactions to you talking about some posts about women's experiences.

You keep going on about how not all men harass women, how you don't, how men you know don't, and about how unfair it is for anyone to suggest men should stop street harassment seeing as it's men who perpetrate it. Seems you just object to women talking about misogyny we face.

YonicProbe · 15/11/2016 17:41

Not at all! Just thinking about the train thing.

I heard from a male friend that when men use urinals, they naturally space themselves as much as possible. Also see this in eg park benches - people tend to leave a space until the bench gets full.

That's why I would find a man sitting next to or very near me in an empty carriage worrying; social norms would space us out and he had chosen to ignore those.

I would find a woman doing the same to me disconcerting but not worrying unless she was also, say,clearly drunk.

I would wonder if getting up and moving would prompt an aggressive response (since said man had already been anti-social norms by choosing to sit near me, obviously a bit different if the train suddenly emptied at one stop)

growapear · 15/11/2016 17:41

I think if I was a women, and they have posted on here before, and I was being made to feel like pretty much every other women was the object of sexual comments from men, but I wasn't....I dunno how that would make me feel....it feels strange to me that if you are telling me pretty much all women are hassled on a regular basis from age 14 and to a habit changing and life limiting extent, and my wife hasn't been....why would that be ?

In actual fact the comment about her looking at me like I was an idiot was not in reference to this thread or the subject of cat calling in general.

Datun · 15/11/2016 17:42

Strewth grow Do you see as holding Dervil accountable or pan, or libprog (I hope I've got that right and you're all men?).

You're not accountable for all men but it would be less irritating and derailing if you understood that BECAUSE you belong to the same class you should try and get a little more understanding, leading to empathy.

IAmAmy · 15/11/2016 17:45

growapear you are awful. I and all my friends have been, so many women and girls report similar, but since my personal experience isn't good enough for you that says it all about how far you'll go to minimise the issue and perpetuate misogyny by doing so.

SpeakNoWords · 15/11/2016 17:47

Have you asked your wife specifically or are you assuming that she hasn't been subject to this? Perhaps she is lucky and hasn't experienced it to the extent it hasn't been an issue for her. I've experienced it a little but not as much as others due to where I grew up as a teenager. More so as a young adult, and now much less so as I am getting too old for men to notice.

I would think where I sat on a near empty train or platform. I was once very scared when I was unexpectedly on my own in a part of London I didn't know at 1.30am in the morning, and I didn't know how I was going to get home or even really where I was. Has nothing like that ever happened to your wife, grow, ever?

SomeDyke · 15/11/2016 17:48

As regards various comments about lesbian separatism, I just feel like I could do with some at the moment!

To not have to think about these issues whenever you go outside, because there are no men there (well, or only gay men). Needs an island somewhere.........

To only let women into where you live, to not have to talk to men over the garden fence, or on the phone. To just not have to engage with men at all............

To only read books by women, to only have conversations with women, to only spend your emotional effort on women, to only care for women and be cared for by women.

I think I need a lesbian retreat............

YonicProbe · 15/11/2016 17:48

Pear, weren't you on a thread a while back with some stats about street harassment percentages?

YonicProbe · 15/11/2016 17:51

Just in case you've forgotten, here's some:

m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/9429520

Xenophile · 15/11/2016 17:52

But I am being held responsible for it.

No, you aren't.

You've had this explained to you in some detail on both of your last two name changes, so I have to assume that you are being deliberately goady for effect or merely obtuse.

When people of colour discuss white privilege and how it affects their lives and the steps that they are expected to take to avoid racist behaviour, I do not assume they are talking about me specifically, unless I have done something of that nature. If I have, I listen to what they have to say and how it affects them and try to alter my behaviour in order to stop doing things that will adversely affect them.

When feminists discuss men as a class, how that class of person affects their lives and the steps they are expected to take in order to avoid behaviours that can be deleterious to their wellbeing; and you have not undertaken those behaviours, then the conversation isn't about you. You say you haven't perpetrated street harassment, so therefore no one is blaming you for doing it.

Datun · 15/11/2016 17:54

grow Instead of defending yourself, watch the TED talk. Then come back and tell us if you get it. If you don't get it, tell us why.

Using the 'why men go to war' argument on a thread about girls suffering from street harassment and women being concerned about predators is just shit.

venusinscorpio · 15/11/2016 17:55

Do you suggest that we don't share our experiences anywhere at all in case it will make women who don't feel it's a problem for them uncomfortable in some way? This is a feminist board.

StrictlyPan · 15/11/2016 17:56

There was a cartoon in a paper years back re a news report that contained nothing but stories of male violence. The women in the room were looking at the one man there with increased anger. He was receding more and more into his chair.
grow those women were not holding him especially and personally accountable for all the bad news items. I am reading a lot here that you ARE feeling you are being held to account and so getting a wee bit defensive.
But the v least you could do is stop the undermining and justifications and divergences from the OP. I would like to helpfully remove that massive spade from your hands. In the least patronising way possible.

growapear · 15/11/2016 18:03

"My last two name changes" ? wtf are you on about ?

And Dervel clearly does feel responsible for other men.

I'll try and write this as honestly as I can in the interests of hopefully making it clear that I am not out to (deliberately) offend everyone. What you're asking of me is to accept that women have a shitty time of it compared to men, and that as a man I have to accept what women tell me about their experience (as long as I listen to the right women, and not the ones who throw other women under buses). In your opinion it would be better to be have been a man ? I can't say that I've ever really thought much about whether being a women was worse than being a man, I assume this is what is behind all of the MGOTW and whatever else exists to deny this analysis. Simply that you cannot deny the experience of the opposite sex and that if you get enough together to express the same idea it seems like they all believe it.

What about my daughter - would you accept that it might be difficult to accept what a bunch of strangers over the internet tell me rather than my wife, about the female experience, someone who I love and respect ?

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