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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Cat calling

515 replies

Cocklodger · 14/11/2016 13:36

I'm sure this one has been done to death, I don't frequent the board often tbh.
now I hate catcalling. I'm sure every woman has or will experience it. Its not pleasant. It makes me angry and sometimes it scares me,
But today I've seen a post on FB (with someone of a similar view point to me) being ripped into, because
''Its just a compliment''
she's a ''fun sucker''
''I bet she would've REALLY just asked for his number''... Those comments came from women.
Now I, being me decided to defend this person and found the same comments hurled at me. I've now just left it because I've gotten to the point where I can no longer even try to come up with a coherent argument. I have also received personal insults(about my appearance and the fact I'm obviously a bit fat since I was recently pregnant baby under 2wks old)
i just didn't realize how acceptable it was, I genuinely thought it was wildly noted as pretty fucking annoying (If I'm being generous)
I don't even know what to say.
Wtf is wrong with people?
Can someone please reassure me that I'm not wrong? I know I sound bloody pathetic but for some reason finding out how acceptable it is has actually quite scared and shaken me a lot....

OP posts:
growapear · 15/11/2016 16:21

Dervel

The irony of you apologising on my behalf is striking. Do you think that as a man you are responsible for me somehow ? What a bizarre thing to do. Is it just me or will you now apologise for all the shitty things men do ?

You, by your own admission, did not read the entire thread. I was responding to a point that a PP made suggesting that "men" could basically change other mens opinions and attitudes if they only wanted to, and they didn't bother to because "they" benefit from not changing those opinions. A position that IMO is not borne out by any inspection of history.

Actually I implied nothing of the sort.

So you see, i did not say that you did, however you jump on to the end of a thread you admit to not reading and then tell me that my posts give you nausea because I didn't respond to a banner list of questions you pulled out.

IAmAmy

Clearly you can say whatever you want to and shouldn't for a second not say it incase you offend me. Not that I think you are remotely serious about tempering your output for fear of offending me. My opinion is that "men" do not respect and admire other men more than than they do women. As a general statement that IMO is false. If you think that me expressing that means I think that everything you posted on this thread is also BS, then I've no idea where you would get that idea from.

StrictlyPan · 15/11/2016 16:23

There is a TED talk on this, posted some time ago on MN. An Austrailian man re exactly what Datun is taling about re every little decision has to be made and reviewed. Activites that men just don't have to do.

Datun · 15/11/2016 16:34

pan

I know this sounds ridiculous, but it was a big jolt for me when I realised men didn't do it too. I know I knew it on an intellectual level, but I hadn't given it much thought. I gave myself a few minutes headspace wondering what that would be like. Walking without fear.

Then I got bloody annoyed.

growapear · 15/11/2016 16:36

Listen, I accept that women feel threatened by men, and it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that they change their behaviour to try and make themselves safer, I would probably do the same and when i was a teen used to know something of how that feels when avoiding places I knew might not be safe to walk home through. Some women however, apparently dispute that this is the case - which ones should I "believe" ? They are expressing contradictory accounts - it can't be true that cat calling is both a compliment and intended to make a women feel good about herself, AND for it to be an thinly veiled threat intended to remind her that she is in a "mans" space, and consequently make her feel not good.

My problem is that it seems to be OK round here to say that all men are to blame for some mens behaviour. My point is that men are not somehow magically able to change the behaviour of other men, if this was the case not just sexism but ALL of humanities problems could surely be ended ? As it stands there are many men who are greatly invested in ending male violence, so saying that they are part of the problem, by dint of being men is difficult. As I said earlier if anyone wants to point me at a "class analysis" 101 perhaps an earlier thread, then I'm happy to read it.

StrictlyPan · 15/11/2016 16:36

It's one of the educative bits about being with a woman friend/partner.

Dervel · 15/11/2016 16:38

I see frustration and I continue to fail to convince you to bring sufficient empathy to the table that might obviate that frustration. I'm clearly not eloquent or capable enough to get you to stop. Thus I'm apologising for my own failure that I am responsible for.

I'm also not entirely sure when you were grasping for concepts to throw at me irony quite means what you think it means. For a quick crash course in the concept nothing Alanis Morisette sings about in her song Ironic is actually ironic, which therefore is ironic. I hope this helps.

Fair point I may be missing certain nuances to the discussion, I'll take that accusation on the chin. However all you are doing is a variation of NAMALT. This is a ludicrously common tactic when used to silence women, hence the nausea.

If you want to engage in good faith with feminists you can take it as read they know not all men are like that and engage on the issues directly.

libprog · 15/11/2016 16:44

Datun

Interesting. I also prefer to sit next to a near a woman on a bus (well train here, and at least at night time).

YonicProbe · 15/11/2016 16:44

I guess "isn't it a pain in the ass, don'tcha think?" Wouldn't have scanned for Alanis!

Datun · 15/11/2016 16:51

libprog. Are you a man ? If so, then yes you get it.

grow. When I said I was bloody annoyed, interestingly and confusingly it wasn't because I was being forced to avoid the threat of male behaviour, that had been ingrained in me all my life. It was the incandescent lightning bolt of sure fire knowledge that all the rest of the men, everywhere had NO idea.

Watch the TED talk that Pan mentioned. Then come back.

growapear · 15/11/2016 16:58

Dervel

I think i mentioned before that you are the most condescending poster.

I am suggesting that as a man I have a very limited influence over other men. I am not able to influence their behaviour just because I happen to be a man. By the same token, neither am I somehow partly responsible for the behaviour of other men. This is the position I have taken, or tried to take throughout this thread.

You apologised on my behalf. Not because YOU couldn't convince me to be nice, but "on my behalf" i.e. as a representative of me. Your attempts to suggest otherwise indicate that you seem unable to understand what "on behalf of" means.

You therefore, in an attempt to make me look like I needed to be apologised for, did the very thing I was arguing against you needing to.

So you see that the irony is that IMO you make my point rather than undermine it, you are indeed neither responsible for me nor able to speak on my behalf. This i believe is the opposite of the outcome you intended, and so fits with a definition of irony I believe is widely used.

I hope that helps.

libprog · 15/11/2016 16:58

Datun Yes I am. And yes, because it's not even that I am weak or anything, I am 6ft and intermittently work out. But I once had a bad experience on a train as a teenager, and since then I almost never lose that wary feeling on empty trains at night.

Datun · 15/11/2016 17:03

grow. The contradictory nature that you are perceiving in women on the one hand trying to keep themselves safe, but on the other hand saying it makes no difference, is partly based on statistics. It gets heated because it's very tempting to think that women can be responsible for avoiding their own sexual assault, if only they didn't do this, that and the other. Unfortunately, as has already been mentioned, you are in far more danger with someone you know.

Focussing on it being women's responsibility to avoid danger, puts the responsibility squarely back onto women, which is patently nonsense. It is addressing the wrong side of the equation.

We are fully aware that some men rape, so we are on the alert. It doesn't stop it. And there you have the paradox.

Cat calling escalates very quickly into abuse. That is why there are a few differences of opinion. As long as you shut up and take it, you're fine. Try and retaliate and you can put yourself in danger.

YonicProbe · 15/11/2016 17:05

Lib

Sorry that you had a bad experience on a train.

Assume you see that sitting near or next to.a woman on a near empty train, especially if other seats in the carriage are free, is quite likely to make her nervous and hope you take this into account.

Datun · 15/11/2016 17:07

libprog. Yes, i'm sure that had a lasting effect. And gives you and understanding.

For what it's worth, there are loads of men posting here, and they all seem to get it. Whether they have just given it some thought, or had a bad experience themselves, they do seem to understand.

That's all we ask. Spread the word

growapear · 15/11/2016 17:08

It's one of the educative bits about being with a woman friend/partner.

I can tell you, that when I have spoken to my wife about some of the stuff I read on here, she looks at me like I'm a fucking idiot.

Datun · 15/11/2016 17:08

YonicProbe I never even thought of that!

YonicProbe · 15/11/2016 17:09

Shall we all, from here and now, use street harassment not cat calling?

I've no idea who the cat is even supposed tobe in cat calling - the recipient or the perpetrator. But it's the wrong phrase and doesn't convey the seriousness and unwelcomeness.

And for the Joanna Lumleys of this world, they can call it street flirting, and we can guess that's not an emcounter that ends with an insult

Datun · 15/11/2016 17:10

growapear. I'm sure she does. It's very uncomfortable. And if she hasn't experienced any kind of male violence, it's very likely she won't get it. Take it slowly.

YonicProbe · 15/11/2016 17:10

Datun, you are female, right?

growapear · 15/11/2016 17:12

Datun

i actually dont; know any men who cat call, or who think that men who do e.g. cat call at young girls are anything other than dicks, so there's not a lot of word to be spread there.

It's interesting, because you see I would not generally sit next to a women ahead of a man incase she thought I was up to something.

Datun · 15/11/2016 17:14

Thing is grow Women can often collude in it unwittingly. All the men they know are 'nice'. Hell, all the men I know are nice and I'm certain I have colluded in it. It's only when I began reading, and reading, and reading that the penny dropped.

I've been lucky. Doesn't mean I can't see it.

Would your wife walk across a deserted car park at night if she saw a lone man sitting on a bench? I doubt it. She probably just doesn't ask herself why ?

Datun · 15/11/2016 17:15

YonicProbe. Yes! Why?

IAmAmy · 15/11/2016 17:17

growapear you are certainly responsible for your own behaviour, which at the moment is devoting a considerable amount of your time to arguing with women who are posting about street harassment. As for the insinuation of your comment about how your wife looks at you when you tell her about some of these things, I find it pretty enraging you're doubting our experiences. I've suffered street harassment since I was 14 and I am no different to any of my friends in this. You minimising it and creating arguments on this thread is exasperating and dismissing these experiences is just unpleasant.

Datun · 15/11/2016 17:17

YonicProbe. I'm on a mission to convert ONE poster on here. Just the one - every little helps

.

IAmAmy · 15/11/2016 17:19

Oh wow, you don't harass women on the street and as far as you're aware no men you know do, well done to you all, pats on backs all round for not being misogynists, your work is done and who cares if women and girls have to suffer it constantly.