Cat calling

[Cocklodger]

I'm sure this one has been done to death, I don't frequent the board often tbh.
now I hate catcalling. I'm sure every woman has or will experience it. Its not pleasant. It makes me angry and sometimes it scares me,
But today I've seen a post on FB (with someone of a similar view point to me) being ripped into, because
''Its just a compliment''
she's a ''fun sucker''
''I bet she would've REALLY just asked for his number''... Those comments came from women.
Now I, being me decided to defend this person and found the same comments hurled at me. I've now just left it because I've gotten to the point where I can no longer even try to come up with a coherent argument. I have also received personal insults(about my appearance and the fact I'm obviously a bit fat since I was recently pregnant baby under 2wks old)
i just didn't realize how acceptable it was, I genuinely thought it was wildly noted as pretty fucking annoying (If I'm being generous)
I don't even know what to say.
Wtf is wrong with people?
Can someone please reassure me that I'm not wrong? I know I sound bloody pathetic but for some reason finding out how acceptable it is has actually quite scared and shaken me a lot....

grow. One last attempt. I have ZERO doubt in my mind that your wife has not at some point altered her behaviour because of what is perceived as male violence.

She wouldn't walk home by herself down an empty street in the dark ? She wouldn't get into an unlicensed taxi cab? She'd be happy wandering around town alone in the early hours? She thinks nothing of walking the dog at midnight in the woods? It's ingrained.

I didn't know how I was going to get home or even really where I was

Like for example, why would a young man not be worried if he didn't know where he was and how to get home ?

Like for example, why would a young man not be worried if he didn't know where he was and how to get home ?

Now you're just being a GF. I'm done. Watch the damn TED talk.

Your wife may be the sort of person who can brush it off, she may enjoy it, it may genuinely have never happened to her. I'm sure she has good reasons. She's not here so not going to speculate further. Anecdotally I don't accept that's the case for the majority of women. Which is why this is a women's issue.

What comes with this sort of debate is the development that men should recognise that they benefit from the immediate oppressors and cat callers. No matter if they are Grauniad readers and know how to pronounce quinoa.

Is that too much of a push grow? I only ask yourself as I think you will be the only person here who might struggle with that.

What do you think?

And yes, what Datun said.

About it being ingrained.

What benefit do I get from other men engaging in behaviour that makes women scared of me or resentful towards me ?

Men get the benefit of seeming like "nice guys" for not engaging in the behaviour. They get to look decent for walking us home, for looking out for us, for warning other men or boys who harass us at parties say off, for generally protecting us against male violence. This is often something women and girls are grateful for, say thanks, praise a boy or man for. This wouldn't be something which could make boys/men look good if the risk of male violence wasn't ever present.

Men also have advantages over women in many ways for it, in being able to live life far more freely and more cheaply too.

This thread really has gone pear shaped hasn't it?

You are confusing fault and responsibility. Am I at fault for all the men who cat call? No of course not. I am also not personally responsible for the world I grew up in. I am however incrementally responsible for the society I pass on to my children and their children. I actually could't give a fig whose fault it is to be honest, but a problem there clearly is.

Women are clearly not catcalling themselves here so there is nack all they can do beyond name the problem as they see it and then the rest of us work on dismantling the conditions that l normalise it.

It may not be our fault we find ourselves in a society like this, but it sure as shit will have become our fault if our children are still having the same argument 30 years from now!

The very argument you are making is privileging men over women. BY MAKING IT ALL ABOUT MENS FEELINGS.

Suppose you want to be a taxi driver.

Do you think a climate of apprehension amongst women makes it more likely or less likely that they will take up the job in competition to you?

You are with a,group of idiots, maybe you got stuck with them on a work away day. Maybe this wasnt long after you started your first job. They yell out look.at the tits on that. You laugh along because you don't want them to think you snooty. You just bonded at the expense of women.

You are on a crowded bus and occupying two seats. A woman gets on, has had aggro before, decides to stand rather than ask you to move.

The first and the third, you probably aren't even aware that women modified their behaviour to give men a bit more space. The second, you are, and you feel uncomfortable, but you think it wasn't that bad, you got a bit of a tight smile back (not realising it was placatory), maybe she was flattered

I have little doubt you will twist my examples, but there's some suggestions for you. HTH.

And what interest do you think men would have in "appearing" like nice guys Amy ?

When your wife says she doesn't know what we're talking about. Because you are not like that. Because you are a nice guy. You wouldn't dream of doing anything like that, and praises you for that and says she doesn't know what we're talking about. Because you are not like that. Because you are a nice guy. You wouldn't dream of doing anything like that, and praises you for your enlightened attitude.

You May not seek that, you may even not want that. But guess what, you get it regardless.

grow. And I can see how that would be considered unfair. You have done nothing, but you are still getting in the neck somehow.

So just understand. Just have some empathy for people whose experience may not mirror your own. Open your eyes to casual sexism. Just be aware. Occasionally, preface your thoughts or actions from a woman's point of view. That is exactly how you can help.

Your tone is horrific, growapear. Patronising and dismissive plus expecting women to explain everything for you then when we take the time to do so, patronising and dismissing everything further, twisting words and seeking argument. The "interest" and benefit as the point was originally is that they come across as nice, win praise from the girls and are seen as decent. Even if they are nice, in this way they have been able to display decency by doing something they only have to due to threat male violence.

And Datun has put it excellently.

Oh come on grow are you seriously suggesting you accrue no benefit from the immediate subjugation/embarrassment/ dent in a sense of self esteem and placing of women at a disadvantage in a global sense?
Bit of Yonic's eg and some of Amys.

I can see how it can take awhile, it did for me - again not as Dervel put it - not personal to you.

A sort of Macbeth thing "would not play false yet wouldst wrongly win".

I find it hard to believe that you can't understand that your wife might have had one set of experiences, and other women will have had different experiences. Your wife sounds very fortunate not to have ever experienced any sexism in her life to date, or ever seen it happen to another woman, or read or seen it in the media. That's fantastic for her. But that doesn't mean other women's experiences are not true. Especially when there is clear evidence to show that there is an issue.

And the oppression of women as a class will definitely accrue you benefits. Diverse and wide ranging.

Gender pay gap. Domestic duties. Promotion potential. Men (and women) listening to you because you're more credible. Blah blah. Numerous and undeniable. Street harassment is just a symptom.

I've only ever met one person in a wheelchair working in my profession (which is also heavily male dominated)

I've almost certainly benefitted from unconscious bias against disabled people at some point. I don't feel accused by or defensive about that statement. I think that situation sucks and would not look to defend able bodied people against complaints from disabled people on this point.

In the article linked, 85% of women have experienced street harassment. I guess your wife is in the 15%, like Joanna lumley

Another eg. Currently I am doing a lot of work with adult care leavers and the impact of being in care when young as lasting effects using the psychologically concept of "shame" where they feel 2nd class due to something outside of their control. It's in the bones.
Generally the employment outcomes are horrendous. It should be a national scandal imo but it isn't. They have no voice.

When it comes to "competing" with you in a job market they have no chance. You didn't cause it at all but you do benefit from it. Unless of course you are also an adult care leaver.

A messy eg I know but there is some equating going on there by way of illustration?

Ah well, I tried. Once a goady fucker, always a goady fucker. Utterly pointless to engage further.

It's naive to think people will not enjoy the benefits that inadvertently accrue to them. But an awareness of that, is a beginning.

No Pan, I think that's a pretty good example actually.