CBBC - just a girl

[kua]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3885922/Parents-slam-damaging-BBC-sex-change-aimed-six-year-olds.html

Someone listened , I didn't think it would be the DM though!

[lilithxx16]

It troubles me that we can talk to kids about gender (a safe subject) but not about sexuality. Homophobia starts in schools, where gay is commonly used as an insult.

Many kids have two mums or two dads. I don't see a reason why CBBC shouldn't run a programme on this.

[Miffer]

lilithxx16

That troubles me as well Lili, I started posts about it a couple of times but gave up.

[Datun]

Felascloak

Interestingly I think the comments on that report were identifying two groups: GNC and GNC with gender dysphoria. The opinion being the former aren't trans and will 'grow out of it' and the latter definitely are and never will.

"Steensma study is that he identified two groups and the the main characteristic of the "desisters" were being gender non-conforming (wanting to have the role of the other sex - being able to behave like a boy/girl) and the persisters felt they were in the "wrong body".

Interestingly surgery/drugs is being proposed to the second group as the only possible option to avoid misery.

It makes sense to me re my wondering about what appears to be 'genuine' trans and not genuine.

[CoteDAzur]

ripples - I don't think you are derailing. Your view point is unique on MN and invaluable. Please stick around.

[Milander]

The Today programme say they are covering this shortly

[Miffer]

Agree with Cote regarding Ripples.

I think these threads have been much more interesting lately having the views of people with direct experience of trans issues. Would be a shame to lose that. That isn't to say they aren't interesting anyway.

Also I didn't know Miranda Yardley posted here, is Miranda's partner a "A Guy Called Helen"?

[FloraFox]

Milander did they cover it? I didn't hear it.

[kua]

Being discussed on the Wright Stuff channel 5 now.

[merrymouse]

I'm quite worried that this will be framed as right wing Christians against people who just want to be themselves.

[merrymouse]

Has there been any sensible discussion on the Today programme?

[VestalVirgin]

I'm quite worried that this will be framed as right wing Christians against people who just want to be themselves.

Possibly. Though I recently had opportunity to read a Christian (not sure whether that group is right wing) pamphlet on "gender mainstreaming", and they didn't actually understand the difference between not forcing gender on children (let them play with whatever toys they like, etc.) and enforcing transgenderism (let them play with the toys they like and assign gender to them according to those toys, not according to sex), they are against both.

[Felascloak]

This is excellent and very relevant here

4thwavenow.com/2016/01/25/the-surgical-suite-modern-day-closet-for-todays-teen-lesbian/

[Milander]

They must have dropped it, I thought I just missed it but having gone back I can't find anything

[ShotgunNotDoingThePans]

Link to podcast of the Today Programme discussing this issue. The 'anti' voice is represented by someone from the Conservative Woman website.

[OlennasWimple]

I'm always rather amused when the liking soccer = being a boy thing is trotted out, as - in addition to it being a lazy cliche - here in the States soccer is very much a girls sport. I'm assuming that there aren't lots of FTT girls running around the soccer pitch every Saturday morning.

[EmpressOfTheSevenOceans]

It's been used at least once in the States as evidence that a boy was MTF, hasn't it, Olenna?

[OlennasWimple]

Not sure, Empress.

I found it interesting that Jazz Jennings is portrayed as being "banned from playing soccer when she was 8", when I would bet good money that there were plenty of co-ed teams that she could have joined (my DS's soccer team has a girl on it, many of the opposition have one or two girls, though it's less frequent now that they are getting older).

[HermioneWeasley]

oleannas definitely - I read a blog by a dad who used the fact his bio son liked soccer as conclusive evidence that he was actually a girl.

[OlennasWimple]

Maybe his son actually identified as a British boy, and he should have got him a UK passport instead

[htdef]

Sorry for responding so late Datun. The toilet issue is complex, there can be dangers for trans people using the bathroom of their biological sex, but I wholeheartedly understand the concerns women have allowing people with penises into their women only spaces. I personally will use the women's toilets if I absolutely must use the bathroom, but look more androgynous than male so I might get the odd funny look but shouldn't be causing too much stress to anyone. It is absolutely something that needs full discussion and the lobbying against anyone who is anti trans is something I will never support, even if you say something I don't like, I wholeheartedly will fight for your right to be able to say it.
The reality is, is that women have got a reason to be wary of men, and pretending that that is an invalid position is downright offensive. Also, the recent spate of sex offenders suddenly deciding that they are trans affirms the reasons people are uneasy about sharing their space with trans people, even though the chances are the actual trans people won't be an issue - for me the thought of using my genitalia is terrifying, sorry, that is probably a little more than anyone would want to know! The fact is, it could allow predators a legitimate way into women only spaces. The other issue is that saying you need to use your biological sex bathroom is that will then men just walk in claiming to be FTM? I have no idea what the solution should be, I would err on the side of asking trans people to use gender neutral bathrooms, yeah it's a bit shitty for some of us, although would be my preferred option, but there is a legitimate reason for concern.
The problem is that sex offenders using trans as a label, or other types using it for whatever reason but not genuine gender dysphoria reasons not only hurts women, but it massively hurts people who are actually trans and have to endure a life with what is essentially a medical condition.

Also, I have heard trans people say their family preferred having a trans son to a lesbian daughter, it definitely can be influenced by homophobia, and the lack of lgb representation for children is shocking.

I don't know that I've made any sense at all as I was also being sat on by my toddler whilst having a pretty nonsensical conversation with him, and trying to type out a coherent replay so my apologies if it is gibberish!

[Datun]

htdef

Thanks for replying. Your previous post about finding your genitalia jarring made me think. I don't know if it's your way of expressing yourself but it resonated more with me (I hesitate to say it's because your were born a woman, but it's what I thought. Sorry).

And your post above demonstrates that you fully understand why women want to keep their spaces.

Personally I've been on a steep learning curve about the trans issue and find that I am far more compassionate to those I term 'genuine' than I was before.

Having said that I'm furious for both you, me and every genuine trans person that the TRAs are ruining it for everyone.

[vesuvia]

htdef wrote - "the recent spate of sex offenders suddenly deciding that they are trans affirms the reasons people are uneasy about sharing their space with trans people, even though the chances are the actual trans people won't be an issue"

The male sex offenders and predators who are suddenly deciding that they are trans, ARE actual trans people, either now or in the not too distant future, in a growing number of countries, due governments favouring self-declaration instead of e.g. medical history of body dysmorphia. These people may not be what was called transsexual in pre-Twitter times, but the spectrum of trans has widened enormously in the past few years.

The inability of laws to distinguish between these two subsets of trans people is one of the fundamental objections that gender-critical feminists try to point out, but the objections are repeatedly dismissed by transactivists.

[Datun]

but the spectrum of trans has widened enormously in the past few years.

To include chancers, voyeurs, rapists and anyone else who will exploit a loophole. A loophole which has been made possible by the transactivists representing the ideology in general. Talk about irony.

[0phelia]

will men just walk in claiming to be FTM?

Erm once he has stalked you home and raped you with his penis I think that claim will be negated.

The bottom line is protecting women from men. Males are of the 50% of the population who are most likely to be violent and sexually violent to the other non-male 50% of the population.

Banning penises in a dress from entering female spaces protects women from this violence. Allowing penises in a dress into women's spaces does not protect them ftom this violence. It's a no brainer.

If a man claims to be ftm to enter these spaces and commits a typically male crime he only needs to be found guilty of simply being a man in a woman's space for the law to be on her side and henceforth women are protected. No "did he or didn't he stalk you, what were you wearing, were you asking for it did you lead him on did you lure him in were you drunk how many men have you had sex with already??" which is what women have to put up with today, man in a dress or no dress.

[htdef]

Datun

I'm pretty matter of fact about my position so I don't mind people pointing out that I was born female, as I was (and still am biologically female) so I'm not going to get offended by it at all! There are some trans people who do feel that transactivists really do not speak for them at all, and I am definitely one of them. All I want is to not feel constant unease and stress over my sexual presentation and for legal things such as, not being fired for being trans to be in place.

vesuvia

I understand that legally they are considered to be trans, I think that being able to state it and it be so in an ideal word would be great, but we live in reality and the truth is that it will be (and is) used to the detriment of women and people who are genuinely suffering from gender dysphoria (that was the phrase I should have used instead of actual trans people).

0phelia

I didn't make myself overly clear, I agree penis = no entry into female spaces, I just began to ramble over the possible issues with asking ftm people to use female spaces and the potential issues that could cause with actual crimes taking place, not the end result of prosecution as obviously that isn't a lie you could maintain! That's why I think it is best to use gender neutral spaces if you are trans, then female spaces are kept in tact.


I absolutely do understand the risk men pose to women, I have lived in a female body for 29 years and have been on the receiving end of what men can do to women. I genuinely do understand the need for the protection of these spaces, I'm sorry if it came across as me saying anything else.