CBBC - just a girl

[kua]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3885922/Parents-slam-damaging-BBC-sex-change-aimed-six-year-olds.html

Someone listened , I didn't think it would be the DM though!

Not understanding why this could be related to homophobia sounds disingenuous to me.

Beyondresonably...

Me not understanding what relevance Iran has to this thread, or indeed the post to which you specifically replied, is not being disingenuous

Fair enough ripples.

In terms of homophobia - I think there are some stats which indicate that teenage trans, if left alone, turn out to be gay.

ripples

Your zero and one post that time (if that wasn't you I apologise) was very articulate and certainly gave me some insight into why one may wish to change gender.

Maybe you could ctrlv/c from your post history?

I have no doubt that that is the case Datum.

Statistically speaking, there will be a certain percentage of trans people who are gay.

If a mtf trans person transitions, and has relationships with men, then would they (in such a survey that is used to garner these stats) be regarded as heterosexual?

If the same trans person doesn't transition, and goes on to have relationships with men, then would they (in such a survey that is used to garner these stats) be regarded as gay?

ripples I'm not going to present you with a list of links. Another poster has mentioned Jazz Jennings. Perhaps you could bear this in mind as you consider other cases of children who want to transition and pay attention to what the parents say, especially the dads. I find it surprising that a gay man wouldn't recognise that just because there is no death penalty for gay men in the U.K. doesn't mean there is no homophobia or that parents would prefer to have a "born in the wrong body" "heterosexual" child rather than a gay child.

"And being trans is arguably far more stigmatising than being gay, especially in the larger cities."

But we're not talking about the relative stigma experienced by a trans person vs a gay person.

We're talking about the stigma of being the parent of a trans or gay child. For those who are homophobic / live in homophobic communities they may well prefer their child to be labelled trans rather than gay, even if the reality is their child will experience greater stigma as a trans person.

"those who are homophobic / live in homophobic communities they may well prefer their child to be labelled trans rather than gay"

I'm no stranger to homophobic communities, having lived in a few, and IME they tend to be even more transphobic than homophobic.

If anyone has concrete examples to show, I would be interested to read them.

Flora

Ok, I accept that you're not going to provide me with links. I have no reason as things stand therefore to concede to your point, seeing as you are not prepared to back up your point after being asked politely to do so.

Please don't present a straw man to me either. I have never once said that there is no homophobia in the UK. I have experienced it. I have however experienced more negativity towards myself while out presenting as female. The funny thing is, when faced with such negativity, a typical "slur" that I face is people calling me gay because I am a man dressed as a woman.

Which, even if annecdotal, is, I suppose something that is food for thought for those people in this country who would rather have a trans child than a gay child. Or put more succinctly, their trans child is likely to be subjected to homophobic remarks because they are trans anyway.

One final point, and this will be my final point to you. Everyone else in this thread have been polite, inquisitive, and engaging towards me. You, Flora, on the other hand, have been nothing but obstructive. I have no time for people like you, as you do nothing to further the discussion in a constructive sense.

ripples I think the statistics is that in 80% of children who have gender dysphoria, it spontaneously resolves and they turn out to be non-trans gay adults.
So maybe it would be better for trans teens to explore that side of things so they can live an adult live fertile and not dependent on medication.
The narrative that people are "born trans"/"brain in wrong body" presented by this kind of programme can be unhelpful. For the 20% who end up being trans adults maybe that is an accurate assessment. But what about the 80%?

Late to the party. So glad my kids have moved onto spongebob instead of the cbbc stuff tbh

As for this whole 'woman is a feeling' thing. Lets approach this properly. Lets accept woman is a feeling. Fine. Dictionary definitions need updated.

Woman - A person who feels like a woman

but what is a woman?!

A person who feels like a woman.

And so on. I don't think it works?

Felas

Those stats sound problematic to me. 80% plus 20% equals 100%. So 100% of children who have gender dysphoria are either trans or gay?

So 0% of those children grow up to be straight adults?

Not problematic, just me being lazy in my phrasing. You are right, some turn out straight non-trans.
I had to Google and this appears the best non-politicised summary
www.sexologytoday.org/2016/01/do-trans-kids-stay-trans-when-they-grow_99.html?m=1

The comments are interesting, most of the criticism in there is that the studies are GNC children not trans children. But I don't understand why those are different?

Danger is that Trans is dominating the discourse. Why not teach kids about gay and lesbian history and lifestyles? Has there been a CBBC programme about this? Many gender non-conforming kids turn out to be gay or lesbian after all. Homophobia is commonplace in schools. Is this being addressed?

Also, I fully support campaigns like @PinkStinksUK and @LetToysBeToys which seek to reduce the gender polarity which is imposed on our children from a young age. By these imposed standards many children are gender non-conforming. To these children I would say - you were not born in the wrong body, you are beautiful as you are. It is not you that needs to change but the society you live in.

ripples you are very much centring this issue on yourself, perhaps due to your male socialisation. I don't care much whether you "concede" to my point. I wasn't directing it at you.

As I say, do bear this thought about homophobia in mind as you see further instances of children being claimed as trans.

Danger is that Trans is dominating the discourse. Why not teach kids about gay and lesbian history and lifestyles? Has there been a CBBC programme about this? Many gender non-conforming kids turn out to be gay or lesbian after all. Homophobia is commonplace in schools. Is this being addressed?

Yes lilith That's what I was waffling on about earlier.
If it's more likely a child who feels "different" is actually going to be a gay adult, why not focus on that? Why not tell those stories first?
I can't help thinking it is driven by unconscious bias against homosexuality although I'm sure most of the people making these programmes don't even think of that.

To these children I would say - you were not born in the wrong body, you are beautiful as you are. It is not you that needs to change but the society you live in.

This. Wonderfully put.

perhaps due to your male socialisation

Flora,

You specifically addressed me in your post. You did state it to me. I responded to you in return.

I am not centering this issue on myself at all. You couldn't be more wrong.

perhaps due to your male socialisation

You're embarrassing yourself now.

Why not teach kids about gay and lesbian history and lifestyles?

Quite. Where are the CBBC programmes about girls growing up to be butch lesbians?

ripples I've never encountered you before. My original post that led you to demand sources was not aimed at you. Your posts are typical of the fedora types who post on FWR demanding time and attention from feminists.

Feel free to do as you previously said and treat your last post to me as your final one.

Can you imagine the uproar if CBBC made a programme about being a lesbian? There's enough uproar when the government try to make any legislation about sex education
Actually it's not funny it's very sad that trans is a socially acceptable subject for kids TV but homosexuality isn't, given way way more children will be gay.

Go back to the previous page Flora.

You, and everyone else here will see that I never demanded anything from you. I asked you politely for links. You declined to provide links. I accepted that.

Now you seem intent on trying to get a rise out of me by being unnecessarily confrontational. Why I have no idea.

Fedora type? FWR? Demanding attention from feminists? I genuinely don't understand you Flora. I'm posting on a forum about an issue that I have a vested interest in. For what it's worth, I actually side more with the feminists than I do the trans-activists on this subject. My intent here is not to demand attention. My intent here is to put my own opinion across in regards to how I feel about the issue being discussed.

I am sorry if my presence here is not to your liking.

ripples we get a lot of mainly men posting here with the express intent of derailing threads and goading feminists so as a result most of us are pretty cynical about new posters and quite quick to jump on any tactics we perceive as potentially derailing.
Have a look on some of the other threads here and you'll see.

Do you think I'm derailing the thread Felas?

I'm going to leave now. I can now only see this heading in one direction. That being me trying to defend myself for simply posting here. And that will end up derailing the thread.

Thanks to you and everyone else for the productive discussion though

No not at all. I'm trying to explain why flora posted as she did. We get a lot of trolling. If I thought you were doing that I wouldn't have been arsed to write a reply.
You don't need to defend yourself to us