Gamergate and feminism

[AntiSocialInjusticePacifist]

My vector into feminism was through that gamergate thing, as being a gamer myself, I was used to videogames being blamed for every social blight that exists. I recall in the 90's when it was all about violence and all the data refuted the media hysteria, the same thing happened again with the Anita Sarkeesian woman and now suddenly the assertion that we're responsible for men being dicks women really grates, because I do not believe that games make men/boys sexist.

I will state flatly there IS sexism within the gaming community, I can point to examples that Anita missed, but my 'lived experience' is that it's not necessarily out of proportion with any other section of society, and certainly not causative I would genuinely like to see more women feel welcome within my hobby both as consumers, and creatively. Some of my favorite games have been designed/written by women.

Why don't the men go to a male-dominated forum and try to raise those questions there? Why not try to educate men who game about how not to be offensive dicks? Why not act as mentors to the younger males who are the most prolific offenders? Call them out on it during the games? Or shun them and let them know why?

Because they need to come on to a site which is mainly used by non-gaming women to tell them how they've done it wrong and what they should really be talking about.

Perhaps I'll go onto a website for people on the spectrum and tell them how they aren't raising the right kind of political awareness? Wait, no, that would make me a bitch.

Also Kick, because they would be subject to targetted attacks from the kinds of men who should probably never have been allowed internet access. The kinds of men who abuse their positions as LEOs in order to be able to access information not in the public domain in order to destroy anyone who fails to fall into line.

It's much easier to come onto a forum mostly used by women and tell us that we're wrong, because they're "nice guys". Not like those bad dudes who agree with GG who explicitly threaten women and any man who suggests that they shouldn't be doing that.

But it's ALL about ethics in gaming journalism. Totally.

See, I'm a migrant in the US. sometimes I want to find out info about my legal position (e.g. if DD is covered by the Americans with Disabilities Act) and the best places to find that out are on boards about/for muslims in America, quite often.

So - I have a genuine reason to be on those boards, with an overlapping interest. I find the info I want and go away again. I don't post. Ever. I certainly never think that my tiny overlap in interest gives me any insight into what it's like to be a muslim migrant in America. And I sure as shit don't start up threads telling people about my views on that. You know why? I know that my voice is just utterly irrelevant, that there is nothing new to add. No-body on those sites needs to hear from another white person. They get the white persons perspective all the time. It's time for me to shut up and learn.

So, I read the info I need, feel glad that there's a reliable source I can use, and disappear again.

You guys live in a dark world where only certain people are allowed a voice, thats sad to hear.

Not sure why the vitriol, I've debated this issue on plenty of gaming forums, and it has gone plenty of different ways, from mocking, to people agreeing that there are issues, to even vitriol about how a 'femenist' shouldn't be commenting on gaming as when they go on other websites to read about issues they don't push their values on anyone else because they shouldn't have the right.

You see, the 'your voice is not valid due to your gender/race/ethnicity etc' argument is flawed for a number of reasons:

1/ You don't know me, you don't know my ethinicity, sexuality, or religious views, you don't even know my political views except for that I take a femenist stance on gaming online, however you are obsessed by me being a man and therefore wrong.

2/ Denying anybody a voice is basic invalidation, and well, I'm not sure if anybody here grew up in a system of invalidation based on skin colour, if so you would never deny anyone the right to have a voice on any subject. I would disagree with a lot of people 100%, but since moving to the west I would lay my life on the line for their rights to say what they want to say!

3/ You've seemingly decided what has happened, you don't know I'm a pro womans voice activist working in the gaming industry trying to bring about change, you just make assumptions through ignorance tailored to your own view and denialistic tendancies.

I feel sorry for the people who judge based on gender/sexuality/race/religious views, I make a point of taking every single person I meet on what they say and do, a little human kindness and empathy go a long way, I'm really sorry that you feel the need to attack first, think second.

I didn't. I thought and read and inwardly digested and then posted my thoughts.

Obviously that's not allowed though, if those thoughts don't chime with yours.

Do tell me more about wanting to silence people.

oops - silly lil' me. I should have listened to the big man. Giggle.

After all, I've never had the excitement of a man trying to tell me his pov before and why it's more important than mine.

Hi Fifa - do you disagree then that the 10/11 year olds abusing other players are mainly male?

I've lost the usual whack of my life to WoW - and I just turned off chat, and almost never did PvP because when I did, I just got a steady stream of come-ons and abuse - among my acquaintances, that's pretty normal.

What about the comments at the killer instinct launch? Do you think it's acceptable for a Microsoft Employee to make comments at female players alluding to rape? Did he make any to the men? Because I don't think that it is.

Speaking of which, given the rape stats, do you think that it's equivalent when a man or boy makes a rape comment to another male vs a female? Because, again, I don't.

One of the main reasons I stopped playing WoW was because the sexist bullshit had got too much. Barrens chat in the Barrens was bad enough, when it got to be everywhere it ruined the game.

Choc choc

Firstly, thank you for asking my opinion, I am so excited to actually chat to someone, instead of the vitriol, followed by the double think of when defending my existence being accused of silencing people, despite claiming i'd lay my life to allow people to say what they want, people just don't listen and attack for some reason.

On your first point, yes I'd agree most young players are boys, infact it's probably like 90% plus from my experience, and it's why I stated earlier I don't play public anymore and just with friends or teams type thing. BTW I loved WOW, but really got into it at MW (PS Zombies 5 is still my fav game to play ever!!!).

My point earlier in the thread is similar to yours, I found that female gamers got a ton of sexually explicit come ons, as much as abuse, but lets be clear these people who abuse are just as happy if not more to use homophobic slurs, racist rhetoric etc, so the problem is not as simple as 'Gamers are sexist', tainting an entire group by actions of the few would be a nightmare scenario to get into, ask Muslims, before them Irish, before them Germans, before them British... It goes on and on.

I'll confess I didn't know anything about the KI launch, but have just watched the video...

Quick point, what is the difference between 'Just let it happen it will be over soon' and 'Whoever thought it was a good idea to play a producer is going to get it'?

Is it a rape joke? Is it a threat of violence on the other side? Or should everyone be policed by the population on what they can and can't say? I think there is a very grey area where if someone says something insulting they should be treated like what they said, however if offence is caused constantly by the smallest hint of 'that could be interpreted in way A/B/C' then we are in dangerous territory. Maybe a white person saying to a black person 'you're too fast' is racist? They are ridiculous examples, but you see what I mean.

I have to admit my first instinct was to think of the dentist, or the doctor when giving an intrusive exam, 'relax and it will be over soon' has been said by every dentist, doctor, nurse in the history of their proffession, are they all rape joke makers?

However on the case itself, I have merely watched the video, I don't know the history behind it, the people involved and the reaction.

Regarding rape stats, what stats are you talking about? There are a million versions of 1 in 5 women will get raped, 59% of all rapes reported men are victims etc...

Apologies for the long response, i'm rambling today.

Upon re reading the first sentence wasn't meant to sound as bad as it does lol please forgive the sarcastic nature of it.

IMO it has to start at the top down. Devs are actively discouraged from making female protagonists. Even in marketing, games which feature a female lead are being relegated to the back cover in favour of a male character.

59% of all rapes reported men are victims etc...

Bless him for thinking we haven't heard the "I'm so sad for you that you won't agree with my opinion before"

Gipsy

I would agree that male protagonists are, and have been massively prominant, however don't you think it was to market these games to a male heavy audience? That audience seems to be changing, and therefore so are some of the game devs thinking.

There are also massively popular games that have had female protagonists, Tomb raider, Street fighter, Resident evil etc... Games developed decades ago.

Street Fighter has how many female fighters on it's roster exactly? Resident Evil sometimes allows a female playable character. Tomb Raider is illustrative of many a problem. In creating the character of Lara Croft, the guys around the office slid the boob meter up to the max and refused to change it back down. The guy who actually created her lost any and all creative control over her depiction and hyper-sexualization. Despite his objections to it.

The recent Tomb Raider reboot (written by Terry Pratchett's daughter Rhianna) is actually a far more cohesive and better told story.

The videogame Remember Me's debacle, about how the game was practically finished and the creator was told to go away and make the main character male royally cheesed me off at the time. I bought a copy simply out of protest at the suggestion a female protagonist couldn't work.

I think videogames are uniquely placed to add to the conversation, surrounding the genders, as because of their interactive component you have an opportunity to walk in the shoes of someone who is not necessarily the same gender/race/background that you are, in a way it is a more intimate a connection. I don't think this is possible without more women creating games.

That is not going to happen when just being in a games industry job opens you up to doxxing, abuse and threats.

Resident evil?!! Oh yes, the presidents daughter needing hidden at any mild peril was very feminist.
You are scraping the bottom of the barrel too, as those games are so old. What recent franchises have a female main character?

I get some of your points, however a ton of games have playable female characters today, I think it's unfair to say only women can create video games with women in them, I wouldn't refuse doctor treating me because she's a woman, and I wouldn't say only males could make a film with men in it.

I detest the last sentence, ' just being in a games industry job opens you up to doxxing, abuse and threats.', I know many women involved in the gaming sector and they are too tough and good at what they do to worry about lazy thinking about the gaming industry. Infact one furiously defends the industry she loves from this type of thinking, she not only does a great job but regularly travels to schools giving talks about wht she does to children.

Regarding over sexualisation, of course you're right, women are portrayed as ridiculously over exhagorated version of what femininity is, but you get men don't have 32 ab muscles, and walk around with their tops off constantly don't you. It's not sexist, it sells, both men and women are portrayed ridiculously, check out the cast of Street fighter... Even the Brazilian monster has muscles on his muscles bulging out!

Felascloack

They were selected as old on purpose.

And Tomb Raider.

So come on then, give me some newer franchises!
I used to game a lot on mainstream games (which is how come I know about RE) but have been put off by the shoot em up male dominated games and the online misogyny and flipping cheating.

Actually I'm a man and I'd like to see more nuanced and well written female characters, because it makes for better stories. I also would like to see more shouldering the story because I like variety.

It's great that your friend can handle the abuse, but should she even have to? Plus a lot of people wouldn't carry on in those circumstances. I am reminded of a female friend who wanted to work on cars, got a job as mechanic and couldn't cope with the the attitude her co-workers expressed at her. She was a quite attractive girl but 17 and also quite shy so I think you can guess what happened. I'm not sure that's fair somehow.

Portal?

Assasins creed now has a lead female, as does Mass Effect, Battlecry, Tom Clancy, Fallout, Owerwatch, even COD and Fifa now allow you to play as females (although Fifa might be a bad example as i'm not sure the main campaign is rgeulated to play as women).

These are some huge franhcises, who are all now using female lead characters don't you think?

Based on the last few years, and some massive female led games in the pipeline i'd say the industry is not only working hard to accomodate a growing female audience.

Felascloack

I agree about the online abuse and cheating though 100%, it gets boring for everyone who gets subjected to it.

Dervel

The females involved in the industry I know don't report abuse, infact they love being in the minority because they, in their words 'get away with murder' where their male counterparts can't.

'Gamers are sexist', tainting an entire group by actions of the few would be a nightmare scenario to get into, ask Muslims, before them Irish, before them Germans, before them British... It goes on and on.

I happen to be German and ... if Gamers, as a community, did only half the work in addressing their sexism problem as Germans have with the nazi problem, then feminists could go and do something more fun instead of addressing the sexism in the Gamer community.

Imagine all young gamers being given hours and hours of education on how to spot sexism, how to avoid the psychological mechanisms that tempt them to be sexist, beaten it into their skulls that sexism is bad, bad, bad ...

Ah, it would be a feminist paradise.

... but of course that is very much not what is happening. So this analogy is flawed to the point of being wrong.

I am reminded of a female friend who wanted to work on cars, got a job as mechanic and couldn't cope with the the attitude her co-workers expressed at her. She was a quite attractive girl but 17 and also quite shy so I think you can guess what happened. I'm not sure that's fair somehow.

I am actually very sure that it is not fair.
This is the reason why I discarded lots of potential careers from the beginning; because they are known to be male dominated and I know I couldn't cope with the behaviours that is almost certain to lead to.

Vestal

Please, when making a point about blanket statements about Germans being Nazis your response is to explain how well German people have adressed the Nazi issue?!

As a German would you consider me reasonable to consider you a Nazi? Because all Germans were Nazis right? Do you think it would be fair of me to call all Muslims terrorists? OR all Americans fat and Ignorant? or all Femenists angry lesbians?

You have to call out bad behaviour when you see it, what you cannot due is label people something based on your lazy thinking, thats poor behaviour. Gamers are not all sexists, thats factually incorrect and dishonest!

Out of curiousity, with your hours and hours of teaching young gamers on how to spot sexism, who would define what sexism is?