Gamergate and feminism

[AntiSocialInjusticePacifist]

My vector into feminism was through that gamergate thing, as being a gamer myself, I was used to videogames being blamed for every social blight that exists. I recall in the 90's when it was all about violence and all the data refuted the media hysteria, the same thing happened again with the Anita Sarkeesian woman and now suddenly the assertion that we're responsible for men being dicks women really grates, because I do not believe that games make men/boys sexist.

I will state flatly there IS sexism within the gaming community, I can point to examples that Anita missed, but my 'lived experience' is that it's not necessarily out of proportion with any other section of society, and certainly not causative I would genuinely like to see more women feel welcome within my hobby both as consumers, and creatively. Some of my favorite games have been designed/written by women.

If you say something factual then you dont have to say fact after it

It actually makes me think of David Brent...fact

Fifa, who do you think is doing the "feminisation" of boys? I thought the issue was there are more female teachers and in some households there is no male parent around so the boys may have a lack of immediate male role models.

Eddie

I wouldn't dare have the arrogance to know where would be safe for a 10 yr old girl, i'm sorry.

My advice would be to treat gaming like a dog, like your doing now, trust it how your daughter wants to explore it, but never give it the opportunity alone to damage your daughter.

You sound very thoughtfull in your daughter playing, I'm not sure i'll allow my child to play at all, and if I did headphones and messaging services would be limited for a long time.

I'd say keep testing the water, let your daughter explore any game she wanted, but keep vigilant, play the game yourself maybe for a while, ensure it's fitting, and keep your daughter educated on how, if someone says something she didn't like or understand, that she can distinguish between an online moron, and RL.

It's interesting because I think about this a lot, I cannot wait for the day my boy/girl can sit and play online with me, but I also dread the day they want to play online also.

Or do you think formal education as currently structured is more geared towards girls' mode of learning than boys? Do you think that there has been a change in the way teaching has evolved resulting in this with the consequence that more boys are disengaging with learning?

Femenised may not be the right word, that kind of accuses more than explains.

But from what I find working with young boys with learning difficulties, social difficulties, or just disenfranchisation is that they constantly have negative experiences of school due to suppression of behaviour.

The old saying of boys will be boys might seem outdated, but when it comes to a point where the majority of male children are being considered naughty, or disruptive then we will have to consider what is the real issue, all young boys have issues, or teaching of young boys is incorrect.

I have been into classrooms where teachers are very focused on the styles that girls pay attention to, and don't permit the masculine girls or masculine boys a chance to lern as effectively, which is sad and is effecting lives!

Yeah, I might just discourage the play altogether which is a shame. It seems to me that I can let her go out and play in the park now without so much supervision because while she might be really unlucky and meet someone who means her harm, she is protected to a degree by a benign social structure and a generally working system of law and order. I'm relatively confident that the space she plays in is a safe one.

It doesn't sound like a structure has yet been developed that can facilitate this online.

I am not a teacher, so couldn't give a full acount of modern training, however I do work with teaching students at universities, and growth mindset (as discussed earlier) has finally become a big thing, however I don't think it's being implimented correctly in certain areas. Dwecks theories are wildly misunderstood in many areas, but are also flawed in some areas too.

The young boys I deal with regularly Dweck would shudder at, they are convinced they are just fixed trait bad kids, and that they couldn't succeed at anything they are not good at.

I hope this highlights why I am anti group stereotyping, and why I am adament that despite issues within the community, the only true answer is to find and fix the issues, instead of villifying the entire community which is counter productive.

I have RTFT, but I want to answer some questions posed by almondpudding earlier in the thread about games that women play being marginalised. The OP mentions Hidden Object or HO games as being an example.

I play games from a company called Artifex Mundi. Every single one that I have ever played has a female protagonist. They are designed around a story which moves on as you solve puzzles including many HO ones (which, OP, can be absolutely fiendish). The plotlines involve discovering family background, being on the track of a serial killer, rescuing a sister, rescuing a daughter, stopping a mad scientist from destroying the world through earthquakes, and others that I haven't yet.

I play them because I can't play games in 3d. They make me nauseous. I mean, literally, not because of plotlines or anything. This meant I couldn't play Portal.

So what do they have to do with marginalisation? Well, some gamers might not consider them games because they're not too complicated and don't take hours. Or rather not more than two or three. They are also easy to put down and pick up again exactly where you left off. I have three small DC so I need to be able to do that. These games fit with caring responsibilities which mostly women do.

I'm not sure if I am answering questions raised very well as typing has only raised some of my own. Are these games marginalised because women play them or because the plotlines are uninteresting to men (hmm, most of the plotlines above involve caring responsibilities) or because they're not complicated enough? I don't know, but I think these are questions worth considering.

Eddie

I think part of the issue is also that people now have become overtly sensitive, ask yourself a question...

Would you accept a 10% chance of your daughter getting abducted in a park, or a 50% chance of someone saying something nasty to her online in your front room?

I'm not saying theyre your only choices, but in reality hurtfull comments are merely that, if your daughter understands that hatefull people say hatefull stuff just to annoy her, and that if someone who says something hatefull it couldn't effect how amazing she is, then realistically what is the harm?

I keep coming to the conclusion that the more offended, and sensitive we are as a species, the worse off our existence is going to be!

Eddie, actually, the games I play are sole player and don't involve going online at all except to download the game from Steam. She might enjoy them especially Tales of Glass and Ink.

Yes Almond, by MMORPGs I was referring to games like World of Warcraft, Eve Online, Destiny etc. which have a real time world in which players can come and go, interacting with numerous strangers (or real life friends) who are using the same game world at the time.

Games like these often have a guild or clan system where players group together to take part in activities either against fighting against game generated monsters or against other player groups. There are also radome group generation systems where you can be grouped with strangers for the same purposes.

There are usually a wide variety of typed and voice chat channels depending on what you are doing and the platform you are using (PC v Console). From a world wide chat to private messaging.

There were people I played with for years and never met in real life, people who I played different games with, meeting them in one and moving with them to another. There are also real life friends who I've gamed with and there are people I count among my closest friends I met through games. There are countless people I've played with for a few hoyrs and never spoken to again. I don't have enough time for it these days though. Too much real life.

I apologise for my dreadful lack of spell checking. I'm post night shift and trying to recalibrate so I've only had about 3 hours sleep!

Coming from a background in early learning the description you give of feminised teaching is not one that I recognise at all.

I don't think not wanting my daughter to be in receipt of a rape threat (as references above) by an unknown stranger is overly sensitive, no. That would really upset me aged 44.

Eddie

So you would prefer the abduction?

My point is, words are far less harmfull than actions, if she understands that then she'll be better equipped than most.

Rape threats aren't really the issue with children online though are they, most verbal abuse come from a certain demographic, within certain game sectors, like GTA or COD etc... If your 10 yr old daughter is playing one of them then there is a parenting issue!

The worry online is people infiltrating games designed for kids on purpose, and those types don't issue threats, they issue promises.

birds

Thats great, you may work in a perfect system, however those I deal with where the system fails them show the exact same traits over and over.

So at best there is a flaw in the system that keeps alienating boys in record numbers, do you have an opinion on why boys now fail more, and are far less succesfull than girls on average?

Fifa, no I would prefer neither and you yourself said you dreaded your kids getting to an age where they would game online. This and the reference to abusive 10 year olds upthread leads me to want to suggest to her she stays well away from online gaming. I can tell her to ignore the shitheads but frankly I'd rather she didn't encounter them in the first place. I don't think counts as helicopter parenting.

All Germans are to blame for WW2?!?!?! What planet are you living on? Xenophile i'll no longer respond to you, that is a disgracefull thing to say, millions of Germans died fighting the Nazi's, of which my girlfriends family were among!!!

Cobblers. Where were these "millions of Germans" fighting the Nazis? I'm not sure in this that it's me that resides on an alternative planet.

And no one is saying that all gamers are sexist, but that online gaming is endemically sexist and people like you who do nothing are part of the problem.

Framing criticism of gaming ethos as "hate" makes you look utterly ridiculous. Especially when all you have done is be rude and dismissive of AS, using the same framing as other GGers do.

GG is a hate movement. It hates anyone who isn't white and male playing games. I have absolutely no idea how anyone can defend it as a movement.

Suggesting that GG simply say mean things is disingenuous in extremis as well, and, as you seem so well versed in it's tactics, you know this.

No I don't work in a perfect system. You seem very keen to tell me what I am thinking or saying. I said I don't recognise the issue with regard to feminised education. There are problems with children with learning difficulties succeeding in main education, there are problems with boys succeeding in education, there are problems with children from low income families succeeding in education. I am not aware of information on any of this being caused by feminisation of education. I dont even know what that means.

birds

Please cite where I have told you what to think or say...

Re femenisation of education, I did say it wasn't the correct term after I used it, as it is a bit accusatory, however you surely aren't that out of touch you've never heard of the theory, I would question an educator not keeping with current social trends.

Ah, the troll wants the facts to go away.

You are lying about how GG works.

You know you are.

Haven't read the whole thread. I am a female gamer. Have been gaming since pacman I am early 40s now and still game. I play most third person games such as Tombraider, Uncharted, Assassins Creed, Resident Evil, Deus Ex, The Last of Us etc. Cut my teeth on Wolfenstein 3D and Doom.

I belong to a clan who are mostly men, but there are a few females.

Currently addicted to Uncharted 4 online. In my experience, when other players have realised I am female, they generally become a bit protective. I like to play mostly team based games as I enjoy being part of a team more than a lone gunwoman! I can hold my own perfectly well and am often at the top of the table with high scores. The majority of the time I will not have voice enabled so other players will not have a clue what sex I am, and I often wonder how they would feel if they realised they have just had their arse handed to them by a middle aged mother. I have for the most part been treated with respect online, moreso when I have been outed as female.

There is rampant sexism in gaming, thats is for sure. I think a lot of it is due to fragile male egos (now I'm being sexist) as being beaten by a female gamer can upset the less mature male gamers out there. Also the assumption that being female means you are shit at gaming. Its so much fun proving them wrong.

fifa

Can you please spell feminist right, i dont normally care about spelling but for some reason i am finding it irritating

Honestly not having a go... I have had to check the spelling myself as i am rubbish at spelling... its just you keep spelling it femenist

Maybe its the men bit in the middle

Rufus

Sorry, my english is good, but there are some words I have to work at, feminist is clearly one. Beautifull was until someone showed me a jim carey clip hahaha

Tone deaf

Good to hear your positive experiences, I was hammered by a 16 yr old girl on fifa the other day... ego, dent, tears...