Gamergate and feminism

[AntiSocialInjusticePacifist]

My vector into feminism was through that gamergate thing, as being a gamer myself, I was used to videogames being blamed for every social blight that exists. I recall in the 90's when it was all about violence and all the data refuted the media hysteria, the same thing happened again with the Anita Sarkeesian woman and now suddenly the assertion that we're responsible for men being dicks women really grates, because I do not believe that games make men/boys sexist.

I will state flatly there IS sexism within the gaming community, I can point to examples that Anita missed, but my 'lived experience' is that it's not necessarily out of proportion with any other section of society, and certainly not causative I would genuinely like to see more women feel welcome within my hobby both as consumers, and creatively. Some of my favorite games have been designed/written by women.

Women.

Oh ffs how much have you missed the point.
Go speak to some Germans about how that country responded to WW2 and then you might get some clue about what vestal is talking about.
Gamers could start off by not tolerating rape threats and sexual comments to anyone with a female handle. I think we can all agree that's sexist behaviour? Yet it goes 100% unchallenged because men just shrug.

"You have to call out bad behaviour when you see it, what you cannot due is label people something based on your lazy thinking, thats poor behaviour"

I see the hostile posts from FIFA have continued.

birds

Are you going to get what 3.5 billion women into a room and hash it out?

Felascloak

Firstly, sorry if I have been spelling your name wrong, I promise that wasn't on purpose!
However, I live with a German, lived in Munich, and my soon to be child will be half German, I am pretty familiar with WWII, the history behind it, and how Germany coped, and is continuing to cope with it (albeit I don't claim to be an expert).

I havn't commented on Germany, it's history or the psychology of Germans though have I? I have merely used Germans, as I did Muslims, femenists, Americans etc as an example of how unfair it would be to blanketly call all of them what a minority of them have done.

Do you disagree that blanket statements of ethnic, racial, religious, sexuality groups is unfair? Are you comfortable with labelling all gamers sexist, despite not differentiating between the black, white, female, male, straight, gay, under age, elderly, religious, atheist or any other sub group? OR is your view if you game you are sexist?

Hillary

Same question, if telling someone that blanket labelling is wrong is 'hostile' then you agree with stereotypes?

Yes. Obviously we would need a big room.

Do you know, i really really don't care what men who are into gaming have to say about the experience of women who are into gaming. I am interested in what women have to say, I hear different men's points of view on millions of topics every day,what is missing is women's voices.

What is the point of this thread? Either you agree there is a problem, in which case do what you think you need to do to do your bit to improve things, or you don't think there is a problem, in which case I have no idea why you are wasting your energy on this non-problem.

Or is this just another feminist-baiting thread, the numbers of which always rise whenever Ched Evans is in the news?

Hap

I didn't start the thread, I have insisted from the start that I don't game in public forums any more due to the garbage that has spewed, I have also comended Anita Sarkeesians attempts, if I am not her fan due to her shady actions, AND I have explained I do loads of stuff in the real world...

Strangely however you feel the need to discount 3.5 billion peoples views, do you think you are smarter than 3.5 billion people? or are you just sick of hearing opposing opinions from the 1% of men on this board?

It's simple though, if you accuse gamers of something expect them to respond and give you their opinion, frankly many of them are sick of being accused of being sexist by a majority who have never picked up a controller in their lives, and IMO both sides are wrong!

Everyone deserves an opinion, they are like arseholes, everyone has one and they all stink, however everyone has the right to have them, I'm pretty sure I have said I hold a feminist type opinion on this matter, however I will defend anyones right to speak, I am literally that simplistic.

I replied to this yesterday but realised that I've been sucked into mansplaining. I don't need anyone to tell me what it's like to be a female gamer. I've been one for over 30 years since playing a Nintendo Game and Watch.

More female characters is not necessarily a good thing:

I asked a number of questions on this thread, OP. Buffy did as well. We did not spout any kind of vitriol.

You never answered the questions.

You did respond to numerous people who were more critical.

That suggests to me that you came on here wanting an argument, rather than to actually clearly explain what you think the issues are in gaming.

Sorry, not the OP, but FIFA.

I reponded to vitriol to another poster, it wasn't initially aimed at myself!

I had plenty of discussion with those willing.

I'm referring to this:

'Firstly, thank you for asking my opinion, I am so excited to actually chat to someone, instead of the vitriol, followed by the double think of when defending my existence being accused of silencing people, despite claiming i'd lay my life to allow people to say what they want, people just don't listen and attack for some reason.'

Yet both myself and Buffy asked questions, without vitriol, and you did not answer them. So that gives the impression you're seeking out negative conversations.

You don't want to consider how I added that this sentence wasn't meant to sound as sarcastic? Or are you happy to choose not to?

By all means ask away, I have no reason not to answer any questions from someone being reasonable, and genuinely interested in opinions

I don't know what you mean about sarcastic. I think you're overthinking this interaction already and I'm being very straightforward.

I can only repeat what I already asked.

1. What are the main issues for women in gaming?

1. Do attitudes by a group of male gamers (mentioned by the OP) to games more often played by women have any actual impact on those games or women who play them?

"Strangely however you feel the need to discount 3.5 billion peoples views, do you think you are smarter than 3.5 billion people? or are you just sick of hearing opposing opinions from the 1% of men on this board?"

Entirely missing the point. I spend almost my entire life listening to, considering and taking into account men's opinions. I said nothing about discounting them. To balance them out with women's opinions takes considerable effort. I note the men on this thread do not make that effort.

Isn't it funny how men who come to this section assume that the women who post here never read anything else on any other site (or even other parts of MN), or interact in the real world. Why on earth would you imagine i don't come into contact with people (men and women) who disagree with me here and elsewhere? But just saying that I've heard enough men's opinions on a particular topic is greeted with such hostility and upset and offence, and the assumption that I must I dismiss all opinions from men out of hand. It's almost as though these particular men have been taught that their opinion is more important than anyone else's especially women. How on earth could that have happened, I wonder?

I think the point that Vestal was making wasn't the low hanging fruit that all gamers are sexist, but that in the same way that some Germans continued to believe in Nazi ideology after the war, and were, and continue to be educated about spotting Far Right ideology and why it's a shitty idea it would be to allow it to proliferate, it would be a good idea to educate gamers on the extremes of sexism within the gaming industry and how it makes everyone's lives awful.

If gamers honestly believe that what feminists want to be doing is pointing out the sexism inherent in the gaming industry, then they are sadly mistaken, but a cultural phenomenon where sexist tropes are lauded has to be challenged. Feminists have bigger fish to fry than whether some dude gets his freak on over Night Elves dancing about in their knickers, so it would be great if male gamers could get their act together and take a stand against the endemic sexism. A few might be, but most are not. The question is whether that's because they approve of the actions of GGers and their allies or are afraid of them because they know what happens to people who speak out. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil and all that.

"Strangely however you feel the need to discount 3.5 billion peoples views, do you think you are smarter than 3.5 billion people? or are you just sick of hearing opposing opinions from the 1% of men on this board?"

Fifa - what makes your 1/3.5billion view that interesting then either?

As to whether it's fair to say gamers are sexist, in my experience, the vast, vast majority are. So, in a class analysis, the statement 'gamers are sexist' is totally fair. Just as it's completely fine to say 'humans have two legs' even though there are a fair few who don't.

Personally, I fight the sexism in gaming by being very good at my job, by playing games I'm interested in without engaging in conversation, and by making sure that my sons game nicely, and don't watch gaming videos with poor attitudes or bad language (they're young, so I have complete control). Fifa - what do you do to battle the thriving sexism?

@eyebrows: Thanks for the laugh. But I would still say that more female characters are a step in the right direction.

For one, it makes the breastplate/chainmail bikini problem more visible and when all female characters walk around in a chainmail bikini, the creators of the content cannot hide themselves behind "But this female NPC likes to be sexy!" excuse when called out on it.

One or two female NPCs for sexy decoration will appear in any videogame, anyway.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil and all that.

Yeah, exactly. German schoolchildren are educated on the dangers of cowardly doing nothing, too.
Thanks for pointing out to the male what I meant, I don't think I want to talk to him anymore. It seems pointless.

I find this thread really bizarre. It's as if no-one's actually watched her videos... I am no expert on Anita but I've seen most of her videos. I have never got the impression that she blames sexism on video games. I know she is a gamer who loves and appreciates video games, and her videos are simply pointing out issues with the way women are represented in games. I think she's doing great things for the games industry and hopefully this movement will see more innovative and original titles being developed in future. She's not trying to shut it down or ban sexist games, she's trying to point out some of the flaws and cliches so that in future, even better games can be made.

It's great that we are now seeing female characters that have depth, purpose, etc beyond being a pair of jiggling boobs or a damsel in distress. The Last of Us is a good example. What a boring game it would have been if it just involved the usual male protagonist rescuing a defenceless teenage girl/love interest, or a scantily clad heroine who has clearly had more development hours devoted to perfecting her giant tits than to her personality and character development... We wouldn't be starting to see these kind of positive changes if it wasn't for people like Anita "attacking" the old cliches.

Ok, I want to respond to each point, but explain clearly...

Almond

Sorry I fell asleep, I will address your questions once I have responded in a generic sense.

Hapshawl

You SHOULD spend your entire life listening to mens opinions, theyre half the planets population, so should be around half the people you hear the opinion from, as I hear opinions from women constantly. You think I am not blancing out opinions of men and women on this thread? Where do I find another 20 men to listen to to do that, this is 99% womens opinions, which I enjoy, it's perfectly normal to disagree, discount is arrogance.

Wheres the hostility, upset and offence? Why project? Where have I stated that my opinion is more important? Straw man much, maybe listen to a point I make, instead of considering how to twist it?

Xenophile

Thats exactly my point about making blanket statements, sexism occurs in gaming, I never denied that, but to blame gamers as an entirity is lazy, Germans never stopped Nazis during WW2, and the majority were irrelevant in the murder of 6 million, you wouldn't sy here that all Germans in 1940 were Nazi's would you? Would you say today that all Muslims are terrorists, and that because moderate Muslims don't fight terrorism on a daily basis you would question if they agreed with the terrorism? That would be disgusting, and you would be wrong.

Choc Choc

In your experience the vast vast majority of gamers are sexist? Would you say 3/4% were not sexist?

So based on those numbers you believe that its fair to say ALL gamers are sexist because less than 10% are not sexist, and by that thinking then it's fair to say the human race is straight homosexual, or that the UK is white...

I disagree that the human race is straight, or that the UK is white, both are too beautifully diverse, and therefore, even by your ridiculous claims the gamer community cannot be classed as entirely sexist.

Yeah, exactly. German schoolchildren are educated on the dangers of cowardly doing nothing, too.

Yes they are and they do, however does this not explain why right wing extremism is on the rise in Germany?

It's almost like people react to what they see and experience, and not what they are told constantly, and hence right wing groups are going from strength to strength despite the German eduction system.

Mamuska

You need to go rewatch I think, she literally says 'everything is sexist, everything is racist'. She is also not a gamer and has proclaimed publicly that she had to go and learn about gaming because she knew very little.

That said what she has done is highlight an issue, and despite her actions after the original video series the sentiment is good, I have said that my POV is a feminist agreement on this subject.

As a person though, Sarkeesian is a bit of a creep.

fifa

mamsuka does not have to go back and re watch you cheeky begger

She has her opinion which differs from yours

Rufus

If the opinion they have is that a self proclaimed non gamer is an avid gamer, then unfortunately they do have to go back, because opinion of a person despite that said persons admissions isn't opinion, it's wrong.

I have had to go back and read and watch numerous papers, videos etc in my life time, doesn't mean the person who pointed it out was a 'cheeky begger'.

Please refrain from name calling