Gamergate and feminism

[AntiSocialInjusticePacifist]

My vector into feminism was through that gamergate thing, as being a gamer myself, I was used to videogames being blamed for every social blight that exists. I recall in the 90's when it was all about violence and all the data refuted the media hysteria, the same thing happened again with the Anita Sarkeesian woman and now suddenly the assertion that we're responsible for men being dicks women really grates, because I do not believe that games make men/boys sexist.

I will state flatly there IS sexism within the gaming community, I can point to examples that Anita missed, but my 'lived experience' is that it's not necessarily out of proportion with any other section of society, and certainly not causative I would genuinely like to see more women feel welcome within my hobby both as consumers, and creatively. Some of my favorite games have been designed/written by women.

What exactly is hostile about asking people to be respectfull, and considering each others opinions?

Did I say I disagree with Anita?

So despite not knowing my opinion you have decided my validity? I am having to walk on eggshells here due to my experience of aggressiveness in other forums, I actually had to leave another forum due to being insert adhominin attack.

I am here looking for discussion (and mostly to learn about becoming a father in the coming weeks) and have found the boards extremely interesting in the few hours I have read before signing up.

Infact I only came here as it popped up (Gamergate) thread as I was testing the water in the dadsnet section, and as I work with marginalised ethnic groups, have just returned from India and Pakistan where I support womens ad homeless children charities, and have been involved with Barefoot college I felt as a passionate humanitarian I would check out how british people viewed gamergate.

I havn't said I disagree with Anita, infact I have claimed there are issues in the gaming community, however because i'm unwilling to turn on the OP I should go away?

Please, just think about what I am saying, not who you think I am.

'-Female gamers now eclipse men demographically, ie there are more women playing videogames than men by a percentage point or two. However whole genres of games are marginalised because they are mainly played by women'

How are the games marginalised? What does this mean?

I would guess that the sexist gamers who hate Sarkeesian do not consider these games to be proper games, and the players to not be gamers.

For example, I play a game called Farmerama, where you have a little farm with cute talking animals, and the game consists of growing vegetables and getting rewards for that, roughly.

Pretty sure the gamergate dudes won't consider me a "gamer".

I was wondering if that was what it meant.

That would mean that the games was marginalised in the minds of some random men who don't play it.

But does that make any difference to the actual game?

eyebrows

I probably agree with a lot of that, I certainly won't be allowing my (to be born) child to play online any time soon, and I mostly now wouldn't play public games due to the garbage thats spouted regularly.

For the record though, abuse can come from all angles, I agree its young boy heavy, but I have spent way too long being called 'faggot boy' 'Dr no dick' and such other stupid insults by young girls as well (apologise for the graphic language).

Young people in general seem to want to insult to the harshest point, whether it be sexist, racist, homophobic etc...

Vestal

Why would you not be a gamer? My girlfriend only plays similar like Minecraft, but she loves vintage Sega, Nintendo etc which doesn't even play online. Tell her she's not a gamer and your in for a tough 5 minutes lol.

Not going to go into details (for obvious reasons) but I do know people in RL who had their personal details including addresses published online in connection with threats of violence. It was not nice. It went way, way beyond trolling by a few 11 year olds. (Incidentally, I'm not actually a gamer myself, have no interest in games, but just happen to know people who are keen gamers.)

I've been hacked, doxxed and RL effected personally...

Turned out to be terrifying, a spotty little 19 yr old. Being 6'5 and 19 stone it ended more embarrassing than scary thankfully, i've had dinners bigger thn him lol.

I never said it was all kids, I said the abuse online, sexist, racist homophobic etc tend to be from a certain demographic, in my experience and the experience of those I know, however it can come from every demographic too.

Vestal has the right of it, sorry if I was unclear.

Fifa I'm afraid the posters who called me out on framing Anita Sarkessian as "the Anita Sarkeesian" have the right of it. I don't agree with her position, although I used to when she first came out with her videos, but when I delved into it in more detail I ended up feeling something of an idiot for having been taken in and jumping one what I thought was just a simple pro-women in videogames position. Although that is probably more on me than on her to be fair.

I have contempt for the public persona she has created, but I accept she may be perfectly nice in her general life. One thing that has struck me when unpacking this as the thread has gone on is that I don't think I would have referred to a man in the same way. Jack Thompson is pretty much her male equivilent who campaigned against the GTA series violence, and I hold him in about the same esteem, but I'm not sure I would have referred to him as "the Jack Thompson", not sure what that exactly means though?

I forgot to say: You should all go and watch Sarkeesian's videos, even if you do not play video games. Some of the analysis can be applied to other media, too.
(The only criticism I have it that it is very 101 and stating the obvious - in my opinion. The fact that she gets rape threats for basically just pointing out the obvious is rather troubling, and perhaps indicates that to some people, it is not as obvious.)

But does that make any difference to the actual game?

Not really. But it makes a huge difference to the culture surrounding it.

It may also be that the producers do not spend as much money on that kind of game as they do on war games, but I really can't judge that.

Just to be clear despite being in oposition with Anita, the level of abuse she has recieved has been despicable and disproportionate. On that score I am on her side.

Yes, I'm assuming there may be some kind of economic consequences for the developers.

I don't think the kind of games that women (generally) prefer are marginalized . Marginalized means put to one one side, not given attention. The gaming industry is pretty fucking keen to capitalize on the biggest group of gamers and the kind of games they play. However, certain types of players may not respect those games and gamers in the same way.

Fifa if I can offer some constcrutive advice, don't walk on eggshells just be authentic. You can't control how other people view you, that's their right to do so. If I say something that someone thinks is mysogynistic then that's their prerogative to think that, just try not to be mysogynisitic and hopefully over the averages of your interactions they will get a better idea of who you are.

I think men trying to control women on what to think is what got us in this whole mess in the first place.

My issue was not what you wrote, or that it was called out (Not so much by Hillary), it was the responsive attack on your character out of nowhere.

I like the idea behind Anita, but like you I dislike her persona, and despite probably being a nice person she's done too many questionable things for me to want to like her.

Her videos have the right idea, but are not implimented well enough, and it's obvious she isn't a gamer, as she makes too many mistakes and has been taken to peices too easily, infact some of the analysis is downright laughable to the point where I just wish an actual gamer had input in the series. That said I would make the same mistakes, despite considering myself a gamer I really only play 4/5 titles and my knowledge of the wider genres would be lacking.

RE the rape and death threats, its a sad affair that it happens, but again, it seems to be a culture thing amongst certain demographics on the internet these days. She has confirmed she was aiming to insight the industry, and welcomed the vitriol, and then uses it to prove her point.

Probably why I dislike her, and the way she conducted herself, which is a shame because the issue is really important to discuss and resolve.

Actually if you look at the gaming press, which paradoxically KickAssAngel does champion Anita Sarkeesian also will fail to cover, promote or otherwise get into writing a lot about the sorts of games that women like. Oh and a lot of the journalists are male.

I think that's what grinds my gears so much about it. There IS a valid conversation to be had about gaming and women, but there is too much virtue signaling and not enough actual attempts to dig deeper into the issue.

So what is the valid conversation? What are the issues with women and gaming?

This is like wading through treacle.

Forgive me if I don't take your impartial opinion on loud mouth children being sexist males due to your username being pretty obvious of motivation.

My username is a pun on bros before hos, nothing to do with my views - but if you'd like to reject my opinion because I'm a feminist, by all means go ahead. It only gives me a clearer picture of what sort of person you are :)

'WOW. Not only are you a man, but you are a help-the-starving-children thoroughly decent kind of guy. Yes you are right. Who cares that Sarkeesian got rape threats? It's just what happens and anyway she's not all that great'

Divisive! Why attack me for stating my position on my passion?! Did you really get that from what I said? or would you just prefer to row for no reason?

'I always found that in game females would get more sexually explicit attention

Which makes it fine? hmm'

When did I say that? Do you think 'sexually explicit' is a positive phrase?

When did I say femenists (of which I would regard myself as one on certain issues) shouldn't have a voice.

Don't be so defencive, please take me on my words, not the words you try to put in my mouth!!!

Anti

I agree, Anita has been usefull to a point that she has highlighted a problem, however the issue has quickly vanished as her agenda changed to fame and fortune, with no true follow up on how to delve into the issues and have a constructive conversation.

This is like banging my head against a brick wall.

Ovaries

How about we start again?

I agree with Anitas position!! I dislike what Anita turned into. Isnt that a fair enough opinion?

Ps of course I knew your username was a pun, I was being light hearted when talking about your 'opinion on children'...

I wondered why gamergate was trending on feminism chat. I had to check to see if it was 2013.

Now all is clear.

[hides thread]

So this thread is not about feminism, as the title would suggest.

It's just gossip about one woman?

Why have the conversation about women in gaming here? There are women who game on MN, but it's not a gaming-focused forum. However, the gaming men on this thread seem to believe they know precisely what conversation needs I take place about women in gaming. So given that the women in gaming have apparently failed at precisely articulating the problems they face with the exact nuance required by the expert men on this thread, why don't the male gamers on this thread lead the conversation on a gaming forum. Say those precise things that other men need to hear that will make them rise to the bee minimum of expected standards! Articulate that problem with your clarity of understanding and change the culture! You can do it, chaps!