Gamergate and feminism

[AntiSocialInjusticePacifist]

My vector into feminism was through that gamergate thing, as being a gamer myself, I was used to videogames being blamed for every social blight that exists. I recall in the 90's when it was all about violence and all the data refuted the media hysteria, the same thing happened again with the Anita Sarkeesian woman and now suddenly the assertion that we're responsible for men being dicks women really grates, because I do not believe that games make men/boys sexist.

I will state flatly there IS sexism within the gaming community, I can point to examples that Anita missed, but my 'lived experience' is that it's not necessarily out of proportion with any other section of society, and certainly not causative I would genuinely like to see more women feel welcome within my hobby both as consumers, and creatively. Some of my favorite games have been designed/written by women.

When does someone become a "gamer"? How much/often do they need to play before they're allowed an opinion as a gamer?

"You SHOULD spend your entire life listening to mens opinions"

Bingo

And yes, I know you go on to say that as half the population they should have half my opinion-listening time. But why in that case do they moan if they are not dominating my opinion-listening time? Why is your opinion the one worth hearing?

I will do what i fucking well please fifa

I started reading this thread as I couldn't work out what it was trying to say and thought further reading might help me. I remain confused.

Is the overall point that that the male gamers don't like being tarred with a blanket allegations that they must be sexist. A poster than said the industry should try to crack down on sexist abuse in the same way that German cracked down on nazism. Fila then objected on the basis that calling the industry sexist suggested he was sexist. Is this all wrong?

What I'm getting from this is there is a problem with misogeny in the themes of some games and in the nature of abuse from some gamers. It also sounds like there is a lot of protests of "well, it's not me doing it" and objecting to "blanket allegations" when I'm getting the impression that energy would be better spent doing something about it. My ten year old DD likes a bit of gaming, am going to make sure I limit her use.

Speaknowords

Someone is a gamer the second they tell you they want to be identigied as a gamer, however Anita Sarkeesian was very insistent that she wasn't a gamer, and had to do a lot of research into gaming. That would imply she was not a gamer don't you think?

Rufus

please do what you like, use as many bad words as humanly possible, it's your right, and hopefully a right you afford others.

Hap

Again, you are blaming 3.5 billion people for forcing their opinion on you, I'm willing to bet you havn't met 0.01% of the male population, so why insist that 3.5 billion of them are doing something?

You see where the logic is flawed? Take every HUMAN you encounter at face value, no matter what ex, race, relion or sexuality!!!!

I tell you what, if you tell me what my opinion is on gamergate then we can discuss how wrong I am, ok? Lets check how I have forced my opinion on you, and how much you listened.

Eddie

Sorry but wrong on both counts, I didn't suggest 'not me' was a defence of gamers, I merely suggested to tar an entire community is lazy, and stereotypical. If I were to say all women were good at cleaning I'd get destroyed, because the cleaning professional is female dominated doesn't mean 3.5 billion females are cleaning experts does it!

BTW Germans didn't 'crack down' on Nazism, they mostly fled, and a minority fought back. Otherwise the NAzi's wouldn't have got out of Germany in the first place. My point was, all gamers are sexist = all Germans were Nazis.

If you don't have the thought process to say it about races, don't say it about anyone, isn't that fair enough?

I have mentioned my actions within the gaming community, and worldwide dealing with womens/childrens/mens issues, but the thread is getting long so I wouldn't expect you to have read everything, I havn't read every comment on threads i've commented on.

PS I have also said I won't be allowing my child online in certain public lobbies, maybe you should limit her use (Unless she is having good experiences obviously).

My apologies, I thought the "nazism" was talking about post-war far right groups in German and attempts to prohibit their spread of influence. I'm not sure where the "all Germans were nazis" bit came from.

I haven't seen anyone say all gamers are sexist, only that there is a lot of sexist in the industry and attitudes of some players. What is confusing me is your response to "there is sexism in the industry" seems to be "how dare you call me sexist". As a result I'm finding it a very strange thread as the arguments seem to be running parallel to each other rather than addressing the same point.

EddieStobart, I feel the same way.

There seems to be a general complaint that feminists won't listen to men, and so won't hear this message about gamers not being sexist.

Well I am a feminist, I think my son would be considered a gamer, as he plays games like Overwatch online. We also play some games together online which would not be considered 'gamer' games and there are a variety of sexist statements.

I'm here, willing to listen to anyone who wants to give their opinion on women and gaming, and the posters who are new to the board aren't actually giving opinions about gaming.

They seem to want some kind of debate about feminism and the etiquette of Internet debate. So why not do a thread on that? Because presumably there are a variety of people who have clicked on this thread and attempted to read it under the assumption that it was going to be people discussing gaming.

Eddie

I don't want to go back through the thread to find quotes, but there are statements of 'all gamers are sexist'.

The response 'there is sexism in the industry' is coming from me btw, for some reason I, despite taking a femenist opinion on sexism in gaming, am sexist because I have a penis!

The argument here is not sexism in gaming, because there is and everyone agrees there is, its stereotyping groups, it's lazy thinking that a group is bad because the minority do bad things.

All Germans are to blame for WW2?!?!?! What planet are you living on? Xenophile i'll no longer respond to you, that is a disgracefull thing to say, millions of Germans died fighting the Nazi's, of which my girlfriends family were among!!!

FIFA, that's just a basic class analysis vs. social stereotype disagreement.

It isn't actually the topic of the thread at all.

Almond

Please provide where I have not given an opinion about gaming and sexism! What is my opinion?

My opinions are being disregarded because i'm a man, I'm not trying to force my opinion on anyone, because I HAVE THE SAME OPINION AS YOU GUYS ON SEXISM IN GAMING!!!

My opinion on hating a group because of the minorities actions however must differ from people here, becauseI believe in respect, and treating people as individuals!

Ok, lets get back to topic, i'll ignore the hate stuff of the gaming community...

What do we do to help women in gaming?

Firstly I believe we define the problem correctly, gaming as an entirity is not and cannot be sexist, lets focus on the elements where sexism occurs shall we?

Certain game types are more male orientated, and there are certain demographics that contribute to sexism more than others, would we not agree n that?

All gamers are sexist = a hate comment on an entire group don't you think?

Replace gamers with a racial entity, and sexist with any other stereotype, would that not be a hate comment?

But lets let that go, and discuss the actual issue?

I'm aware that you think there is sexism in gaming.

My questions were designed to get people to expand upon the topic, because that's generally how discussion works.

People like you with more knowledge of what goes on in gaming would provide more information about the dynamics and consequences of what is happening.

So I'm not disregarding your opinion. I'm asking you to expand upon it, on the topic of gaming.

I'm don't think you're particularly well informed on the complexity of class analysis vs. social stereotype, and it is not the topic of the thread, so I'm tending to skin over your long posts on that topic.

Aside from reading Mike Savages book you are right, LCA and SS are a bit of a mystery in the sense they are working theories, but I don't have a degree in social sciences or gender studies so my views on his book are different.

What would you like me to expand upon?

It's interesting depressing that you think the addition of more female lead character is to cater to the needs of female gamers. Why would men not also want to play games involving an interesting and properly backstoried (I'm not willing to describe as developed) female lead? Female protagonists can be just as good as male for gamers of either gender. Do you not think that line demonstrates some subconscious stereotyping?

I am a gamer. I've met lots of lovely people, including my DH through online gaming (MMORPGs). I very rarely mention my gender unless it is obvious because I'm on a voip channel. Over the years the amount of sexual harassment I've received has been unreal, to the point of requiring police involvement on one occasion and with hindsight there were lots incidents that would have been reportable, just not so persistent. I have also heard people make judgements about ability based on gender many times and be very surprised by the level at which I played because I was 'a girl'.

There have been times when people have tried to gift me things and I have heard people complain about it 'female gamers, just get guys to give them xxx items' but nothing is free. There is always an expectation of your time, talking, your individual attention and if you don't give it then you're a user and a bitch.

The majority of people I've met in gaming have been pleasant, normal people but the culture is still 'this is a boys club, what is for boys. You can come in but no complaining or trying to change anything' and like most boys clubs there's an undercurrent of misogyny in the language used and the behaviour, a bit of an us via them mentality.

I do think things are changing though and the rise of mobile and casual gaming is making a real difference to what a gamer is.

I have no idea who Mike Savage is, and not really sure degrees are relevant here, unless someone's degree is in studying the culture of gamers.

I'd like you to expand upon the ways in which sexism is in gaming, where it is, what impact it has on male and female players of different ages, where less sexist environments exist and if anything can be done about it, both i. terms of larger group actions and in terms of men and women, boys and girls, who want online environments where they can play together.

Really any of those issues you feel able to share your knowledge on.

Mongoose, can you explain a bit more about MMORPGs? I assume these are the games that people mean when they talk about gamers.

DS plays games where he is working as a team with other people to achieve some kind of goal (often seems military/shooting based) and talking to them on a headset. But he knows the people. Like, the people on his team are people he is friends with in real life, or their friends. They're all people who are known and approved of by each other. Presumably it's different for some people who are playing with strangers?

I often play Pinturillo (not a gamer game) with DS, but also sometimes his younger DD and DH. That is the most sexist environment I have ever seen, but DS said that is basically what all stranger based games environments are like all the time. He says that is normal online.

As I explained my knowledge is limited to currently only playing with friends and teams etc online due to the garbage (not just sexism but racism, homophobia, and ignorance in general).

I have been abused by women/girls online, and I mentioned an incident where my details were taken by someone I was scared of at the time who turned out to be a spotty kid who weighed about a third of mine.

Gaming in certain areas like RPG's etc is male dominated, and they are all vile to each other as well as women who enter, this isn't just 'woohoo lets just all hate women' kind of area, its a hate filled release for a lot of gamers, who can do so with anonimity.

I read an article recently about young boys being feminised within schools, they perform worse (fact) and are now being drugged in record nubers (fact) at early ages and constantly told their behaviour is incorrect. Young males are now dropping out of education in numbers never seen before, and you will be amazed at how closely linked failure in school is linked with addiction to gaming, and gaming abuse!

There is no excuse for young boys/adults for abusing anyone online, however there must be a cause and route of the probelm, blaming man isn't the answer, but understanding the problem is.

Fifa, it would actually be really useful to me if you, as a gamer, could advise where you think would be a relatively benign environment for a teenage girl as they branch out from Minecraft and the like. My daughter has started using headphones when she plays and I am not comfortable with this. I only what her anywhere near games when she is somewhere I can see and hear what is going on. She is 10 now and I can see her moving on from the purely "child" games she likes at the moment as she grows. I don't mind her playing more complex games but I don't want her exposed to an environment which runs a high risk of being hostile and would really welcome some advice about where would be best to direct her attentions to.