Gamergate and feminism

[AntiSocialInjusticePacifist]

My vector into feminism was through that gamergate thing, as being a gamer myself, I was used to videogames being blamed for every social blight that exists. I recall in the 90's when it was all about violence and all the data refuted the media hysteria, the same thing happened again with the Anita Sarkeesian woman and now suddenly the assertion that we're responsible for men being dicks women really grates, because I do not believe that games make men/boys sexist.

I will state flatly there IS sexism within the gaming community, I can point to examples that Anita missed, but my 'lived experience' is that it's not necessarily out of proportion with any other section of society, and certainly not causative I would genuinely like to see more women feel welcome within my hobby both as consumers, and creatively. Some of my favorite games have been designed/written by women.

No thats absolutely fine fifa

i am dreadful at spelling but i think sometimes certain words jump out at you

I keep trying to spell it femanist...which is just as bad

Oh goodness

Beautiful has one L

That jim carey one was funny though, if we are thinking of the same one

Balls!!!!!

Its because the saying was B E A utiful...

Mongoose, the forming friendships that you've talked about is important I think.

It's often not appropriate to try and keep teens off the internet, because the Internet (including games) is a major part of how people socialise and maintain friendships.

It's part of how DS maintains a relationships with me, now that he has left home and we can socialise together through an online game. It's also a way for him to keep in contact with his old friends.

The impression I get is that there is a big difference between playing with friends (including online friends) and playing with strangers, in terms of how they behave.

Steady on, I also mostly play games that can be turned off at any time. And I RP in fandom, and then the understanding is it is fine to not reply for a couple of hours if you're busy, or to take a month off.

I hadn't thought about there possibly being a gendered element in activities requiring undivided attention online.

I hadn't thought about there possibly being a gendered element in activities requiring undivided attention online.

I, too, hadn't considered that, but now that it has been mentioned, it seems obvious. It is a bit like with work, isn't it? The worktime model where you have to work from 8.00 to 20.00 to get anywhere career-wise is much more convenient for men, who ... actually may HAVE responsibility for small children, but can easily just ignore that without being called bad fathers, while the children's mother will be expected to be there for them, or at least organise the childcare (which however, will not free her from the accusation of being a bad mother work working long hours.)

Women do the worktime model that evolved in patriarchy because they have no choice and can justify it with the necessity of earning money, but there are probably very few women who would tell their children to go and ask dad because mom is just busy raiding a dungeon in World of Warcraft.
And I think the people who are already judgey when women work long hours would raise hell if they were to learn that a mother dares to have fun instead of catering to her children's and husband's needs.

The worktime model where you have to work from 8.00 to 20.00 to get anywhere career-wise is much more convenient for men, who ... actually may HAVE responsibility for small children, but can easily just ignore that without being called bad fathers.

Ridiculous!!!

Women do the worktime model that evolved in patriarchy

Terrifying that you see shadows around every corner!

Whats ridiculous?

Makes perfect sense to me

Rufus

The fact you think fathers can ignore their paternal responsibility without being called bad fathers makes perfect sense is ridiculous!

You somehow believe that absent, or neglecting fathers are socially acceptable. Come on.

There are more women who play games like Candy Crush, and I'm pretty sure that they do it because they can play for short periods while waiting to pick up kids from school, or while they're at soft play etc.

As regards women & work - there's SO much evidence about that. Where to start? Entire university course are devoted to it, and people write doctorates on it.

BUT - lots & lots of evidence that trade unions actually collude with management to disadvantage women (think of Made in Dagenham ). It benefits companies because they need a flexibly expendable workforce to cope with boom & bust - the most extreme example of that being the second world war. It works for male workers because it helps them to negotiate better pay for men. Pay men x amount, but women x-1, and management are more likely to agree. There aren't any 'shadows' about this, but clearly identifiable data.

Fifa, if we expect fathers to step up and be equal in parenting, then how do you explain the BILLIONS of pounds every year in unpaid child support? If we can accept that without a national outcry, then how much easier is it for a father to play games for a few hours without being blamed?

You are missing the point fifa

She didnt say they are absent or neglectful

She is saying that in our culture a man is being a fantastic father if he works his little socks off and doesn't see his children til 7/8/9 at night when many little ones are in bed

Its because they are working very hard and very admirably for their family and it is seen as being a good thing for a man to work all the hours god sends to provide for their family

Its the reverse for mothers, they are seen as being the main caregivers and it is seen as being very bad for a mother to work all the hours

It makes them a bad mother

Do you see?

And no i dont believe this

You somehow believe that absent, or neglecting fathers are socially acceptable. Come on.

Show me where i said this

Show me where vestal said this

Actually said it...not your fast and loose interpretation

A man who played WoW for 12 hours in a row on the weekend despite having a small child will blamed if, and only if the child's mother is also addicted to onlinegames, and therefore there is a neglected or starved child to account for.

Otherwise, he will just not be noticed because the mother will be taking care of the child and everyone will consider that perfectly normal.

One can observe here on mumsnet how many mothers in law expect to be sent birthday cards and other social niceties not by their sons, but their daughters in law. I.e. the daughter in law will be blamed if the birthday is ignored.
I think one can be rather sure that they will have the same attitude to childcare.
Only that, understandably, women don't want to neglect their own children just so that their husbands are forced to take responsibility.

Kickass

The very fact that the system exist means that the system is designed to ensure farthers are responsible. The poor implimentation of it highlights a structural issue within the management (Maybe there are not enough women)

The language used in online gaming is appallingly misogynistic-

"Raped", "attention whore", "whiny bitch"

It's also rampantly homophobic and doesn't leave racism out either.

After repeatedly beating somebody in an online game once they hounded me for weeks telling everybody I knew how I had a lot of sex with many different black men. The racial element was especially bizarre, I couldn't even begin to imagine how the fuck he had come up with it. The perpetrator was a 15 year old from Essex.

"The very fact that the system exist means that the system is designed to ensure farthers are responsible. The poor implimentation of it highlights a structural issue within the management (Maybe there are not enough women)"

Well I can't argue with that.

Mainly because I can't decipher it.

PS I have also said I won't be allowing my child online in certain public lobbies, maybe you should limit her use (Unless she is having good experiences obviously).

My dd is 11, and is a bigger gamer than I was at her age, (I started on a Amstrad haha) as she's getting older her taste in games changes, and I have been thinking a lot lately about to deal if/when she gets sexual comments. I'd feel uncomfortable telling she can't play a b or c because of men/boys making sexual comments to her as it feels a bit victim blamish to me. It's also making her adjust her behaviour when she's done nothing wrong if that makes sense?

It's something we've had to talk about as one of her friends are starting to experience street harassment, and she's had a discussion at school about it etc, she's expecting sexual comments at some point as she feels that if (some) men are comfortable telling an 11 year old school girl to get her tits out in the street then they be comfortable doing it online and may be even worse as they have more anonymity, she has said that they know that as doing it in the street isn't taken seriously, why would they think it would be taken seriously in bra game.

She has said that she won't ever stop playing games because she as as much right to be in that online space as males and it does not exclusively belong to them. That it's massively unfair that many people think the way to stop sexual harassment towards females, is for the females to limit their activities instead of telling males to not sexually harass.

I monitor her online and she mostly plays with real life mates, both male and female and at the moment they all treat each other as equals and are respectful of each other. She's been on minecraft servers, splatoon and Pvz under supervision and there's been no hostility towards her but that could be because she plays on her dad's account, so looks like she's 40 odd year old male.

I was going to list my own experiences but don't want to post a massive wall of text. I will say though that I'm well aware that it's a minority of men/boys doing it, but it's a big enough minority to have stopped me playing online with unknown males, I don't tar all gamers with the same brush, and don't hate the gaming community, but just like I don't know if the unknown male approaching me in the street is going to be like one of the few who have make sexual comments or physically attacked me, I don't know if the male who joins my games is going to be the same, so I just don't engage with any, which I annoy myself for as it limits what games I can play, and even pretending to be male doesn't always work as sometimes I need to speak.

Yes, some gamers are homophobic and racist too and I'd fully support any action started by the people who are affected by racism and homophobia in gaming to stamp that out too. Doesn't make the sexist shit less of an issue.

eddie
What console does your dd play on? I can PM you some online games that my 11 year old plays if you're interested?

Yes, some gamers are homophobic and racist too and I'd fully support any action started by the people who are affected by racism and homophobia in gaming to stamp that out too. Doesn't make the sexist shit less of an issue.

I don't know if this was directed at me but I want to address it anyway.

I think the homophobia and racism are part of that same toxic "masculine" culture. They come hand in hand. I don't think the 'abuse' being (in my experience) mainly misogynistic and homophobic is coincidental.

Sorry miffer it wasn't directed to you, I was thinking on fifa comments, sorry

No sorry needed! Even if it was at me I didnt mind! I still haven't got the hang of tone in forum posts. ☺

See, I don't think that the victims of homophobia or racism or anything should have to initiate things. They should get a sincere apology and then the issue be rectified.

There also shouldn't need to be a govt. body to attempt to get money from deadbeat fathers - society should be so shocked at the idea of a man skipping out on his responsibility that it is incredibly rare and doesn't require its own special service. Like serious crimes that make innocent people suffer. We don't have an entire govt. body for dealing with murder or serious assault (purely those, not that the police/judicial systems incorporate them) which still fails in collecting vast amounts of money. We very much live in a society where men don't have to step up to provide childcare/housework to the same level that women do. That affects our use of free time quite dramatically.

Anyone choosing not to see that is choosing to allow certain men to be complete bastards, quite frankly.

Me too miffer I always worry about accidently annoying someone by getting my words wrong! and it takes so long to type sometimes that I end up not bothering. I read the feminist section loads and there's so many intelligent brilliant women here who have helped me in ways they'll never know, I'd hate to offend them by accident.

See, I don't think that the victims of homophobia or racism or anything should have to initiate things. They should get a sincere apology and then the issue be rectified.

I think I might have got my words wrong. When FIFA said that it's not sexism that's a problem, and that women are not the only targets, (not his exact words) I wasn't sure if he was trying to minimise the sexism or change the discussion from sexism in gaming, and that as a white straight woman I'd feel wrong or awkward speaking in how it's makes those victims feel and how much of an issue it is for them. I would listen and support type thing.

I agree what you say about deadbeat dad's too. If it was socially unacceptable on a large scale to opt out of paying for your own child we wouldn't need organisations to try and force them to provide for their child. I've realised that I bite my tongue a lot around bil as he is a "stay at home dad". My sister works, she gets up with kids and sorts them for school, my mum picks the dc up from school until sister finishes work, she will then go home and start housework, cooking etc. bil does nothing yet if he's so much as seen as walking to the shop with dc he's praised as a brilliant dad. I've realised that I'm part of the problem, when everyone's biting their tongue to not upset sister, he's thinking it's acceptable. I'm going to work on that now.