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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans in children's and young people's services

474 replies

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/10/2016 14:58

OK … I can’t hold this in any longer. I went searching for a safe space to talk about trans issues and I found you guys (as per a previous post). I’m really hoping that you won’t think I’m stirring the trans pot for the sake of it. I really do have concerns.

I teach people who will one day, amongst other roles, work with boys, girls, young women, young men, parents and others in a range of ‘social care’ roles. This includes child and youth services and protection. In both my teaching, and the broader sector of practice that I prepare people to work in, I am facing a wall of ignorant, unthinking, militant trans orthodoxy, or a general fear of challenging this, or downright don’t-give-a rat’s-ism. The kinds of things that I hear people (and these are people with power as teachers, workers and even policy-makers) say uncritically (and as if they were droning a script) are:

  • trans children have the brains of the opposite gender
  • children should not need court consent, counselling or parental permission to have puberty blockers or hormonal drugs
  • if a child wants to access PB’s or other hormonal drugs and the parents object, it should become a child-protection matter
  • children should be watched for gender variant behaviour
  • children should learn about trans from an early age
  • all school toilets should be gender-neutral
  • boys / men should be allowed into women’s / girls’ facilities if they say they are girls. Girls should not object.
  • single-sex residential care homes (for girls, often those who have been sexually abused) should accept males who say they are female (even though we know there are high levels of sexual abuse in care homes)
  • terms such a ‘women’ or ‘girls’ should be changes to ‘people who identify as …’


Beyond this, I have the following experiences:
  • teaching a small but significant number of males who identify as ‘queer’, ‘trans’ or ‘female’ who have made it clear that they are entering the area to ‘save’ trans children from not being able to transition
  • being told by management that the official position is ‘pro-trans’
  • being told by some students that I am transphobic if I mention ‘women’. One was a ‘trans’ male who dressed in leather and studs and wore shirts with violent imagery and slogans.
  • having colleagues tell me that they think the orthodoxy is rubbish, but being afraid to speak out (as am I)
  • being in a meeting of practitioners and told that we must use ‘persons who identify as …’ instead of ‘women’ or ‘men’
  • being in a meeting of practitioners and being shown a ‘trans-positive’ manual that advises that trans boys be allowed into girls’ spaces (camps, homes, detention facilities, etc.)
  • raising an actual instance of harassment of a young lesbian by a trans man and general instances of lesbians being denied lesbian-spaces to be told that ‘trans comes first because they are so oppressed’.


This does not happen all the time, and nor is it ‘me against the world’, but it is prevalent enough to concern me and make me feel marginalised and silenced.

The reason I am writing this, apart from to get it off my chest and hopefully find some people who don’t think I am nuts for questioning it, is that I don’t think this is spoken of much (i.e. institutional responses to trans issues). Plus, these people have power over the lives of individuals, and some have the ears of policy-makers. Some make policies for organisations. This isn’t stuff happening on social media – it’s real – and to me it is terrifying because it can lead to the abuse of children, whether they be ‘trans’ kids or girls.

We don’t know the long-term effects of a set of drugs (PB’s) that were developed as an emergency measure to allow the treatment of some childhood cancers. We don’t really know much about child-transitioners. We don’t know much about the long term effects of hormone therapies on children’s bodies. Yet, we have generally moved away from a treatment regime that saw medical and surgical interventions as the last means to the first. Counselling and other therapies have fallen out of favour – and indeed are seen as ‘oppressive’ by some. This has all happened so fast that we don’t really know much at all, beyond isolated and mostly non-longitudinal studies. We know that some variants of ‘the pill’ have had detrimental effects, as has HRT – why are people naïve enough to think that hormonal treatments on young children are going to be magically better?

The issue of boys in girls’ and women’s spaces has been spoken of here, but I worry for girls who have no (or inadequate) parents to care for them or look after them, such as those in justice centres or care homes. These are vulnerable children.

Honestly, I know that many of us are wondering when this trans rubbish will dissipate, but I can’t help thinking that it might take a class-action of young people with cancers or a girls or two to be raped / murdered by a male claiming to be ‘trans’ for this to happen.
OP posts:
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Datun · 02/10/2016 11:06

Spartacus, Your post gave me chills.

John Hopkins university in the USA was the first American medical centre to venture into sex-reassignment surgery in the 1960s. They have since reversed their stance.

I think it's a well known piece, so you may have already read it, but here's the link:

www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120

...yet policy makers and the media are doing no favors either to the public or the transgendered by treating their confusions as a right in need of defending rather than as a mental disorder that deserves understanding, treatment and prevention. This intensely felt sense of being transgendered constitutes a mental disorder in two respects. The first is that the idea of sex misalignment is simply mistaken—it does not correspond with physical reality. The second is that it can lead to grim psychological outcomes.

You won't hear it from those championing transgender equality, but controlled and follow-up studies reveal fundamental problems with this movement. When children who reported transgender feelings were tracked without medical or surgical treatment at both Vanderbilt University and London's Portman Clinic, 70%-80% of them spontaneously lost those feelings

At the heart of the problem is confusion over the nature of the transgendered. "Sex change" is biologically impossible. People who undergo sex-reassignment surgery do not change from men to women or vice versa. Rather, they become feminized men or masculinized women. Claiming that this is civil-rights matter and encouraging surgical intervention is in reality to collaborate with and promote a mental disorder.

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Datun · 02/10/2016 11:07

Oops sorry, I should have said the the 3 paras under the link are lifted from the piece in question.

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ageingrunner · 02/10/2016 11:39

I think sexual abuse must have a lot to do with trans in some cases. There was a thread where someone was talking about their ftm trans friend who apparently mutilated her vagina because she hated it so much. This was taken as a sign of her being in the wrong body, rather than anyone asking her if anyone was abusing her, which would be my first thought.
If someone hates their sexual organs so much that they want to cut them off, then professionals should be asking why? WHY?

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Atenco · 02/10/2016 12:02

I think OP you, and people in your position, could maybe print out the John Hopkins article and raise it as an issue at work.

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WankingMonkey · 02/10/2016 12:09

I have been thinking about this so much since I read your post, I simply cannot imagine being in the situation where you effectively have to join in with the (potential) screwing up of a childs mind/life. I simply cannot understand why more professionals (especially the likes of psychologists and such) are not raising concerns about this.

I totally understand your concerns about 20/30 years time too. I honestly can see a bunch of young adults blaming their parents/the professionals in their lives for failing to safeguard them in youth, which is the way I see this. Along with the risks of the treatment itself being relaltively untested...we could be causing serious health problems in future generations by playing along with this. I mean some hormone treatments been proven to significantly increase the risk of strokes and thrombosis (from memory..my mother was put through something she described as a 'chemical menopause' as part of her fight against breast cancer and those are the risks she told me of) and there is no reason to think these synthetic hormones do/will not also have large risks associated with them. The thought scares the shit out of me.

If 'trans' is more mainstream come a few years time, I could well be fighting for my son. He likes wearing 'girls' clothes, is obsessed with sparkly shoes and dolls and pretty much everything associated with 'girls'. He is 2 years old right now. My daughter seems relatively feminine so she should be fine and left alone. IF anyone tries this trans shit with me when DS starts school I will fight them til my last breath. Noone is sterilizing my child simply because he is himself and goes against stereotypes. I am worried that in fighting for him I would be written off as a transphobic bigot and unsupportive and such but I don't care. I can not see how other parents allow (and in some cases encourage) this...I really can't.

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ageingrunner · 02/10/2016 12:30

What's worrying is that I've read loads of stuff from parents who don't buy into the trans narrative, but have had decisions about their own child taken out of their hands by the professionals involved

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RiverTam · 02/10/2016 13:45

I agree, I think there will be stratospheric numbers of adults taking their parents and/or HCPs to court for allowing these treatments to happen to them as children.

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Atenco · 02/10/2016 14:42

It is frankly amazing that they are so willing to sterilise children, when there was a 25 year old mother of three who posted here the other day being refused sterilisation because of her age, because of all the risks to her health.

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WankingMonkey · 02/10/2016 15:06

Atenco I am kind of in the same boat as the person you are talking about, though I am being refused on 'might change your mind' alone and health risks have not bee stated at all. I have 2 children who I love dearly but I KNOW I could not handle another. We could not afford another child (DH has 3 from a previous relationship too) nor do we have the space for one. This is not going to change. Hell even if I won the lottery tomorrow and money/space issues weren't there anymore I still would not want another child. My last pregnancy left me with chronic pain issues and basically, without going into everything I know 100% I will not want anymore children. But this assurance is not enough apparently as the professionals know better than me. DH is fighting to be done also and so far has had the 'too young' spiel. Along with this I do not trust 'male sterilization' too much because my brother was conceived after my father was snipped, so even if he manages to convince them to do it..I wouldn't feel safe. This is having a huge affect on our personal life as I am actually getting scared to even have sex. I have the implant AND he uses condoms. But there is still a risk, however small. So we have the options (as I see it) of being celibate, or risking a pregnancy that I do not want, and as such potential abortion. When this could be avoided...

As such I find it personally distressing this whole sterilizing teens business. From a personal perspective aswell as a moral one.

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MisDescamisados · 02/10/2016 15:30

Is it just me , and sorry if this is "phobic blah whatnot ", but I hope I'm not alone in taking exception to someone who cannot even notionally be anyone's mother , by the accepted meaning of the term , telling me as an actual member of the class "woman" , that not only should we just accept invasions of our daughters' privacy , but that it is our daughters who should vacate such facilities as seen fit for such invasion?
I know us gels are socialised to be njce and share , from birth, but nope.
You dont get to tell people who've been actuall woman from birth , how to feel , or to vacate and make space for others , not if you don't want to sound ,er, like every man, ever.

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StephanieDA · 02/10/2016 15:36

I've collated research & info on this site, as a resource for parents & professionals OP (and as an alternative to the overwhelming amount of pro-transing of kids material online and throughout the media). Please use it if it's helpful. //www.transgendertrend.com

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WinchesterWoman · 02/10/2016 16:17

Good misdes well out

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MisDescamisados · 02/10/2016 16:29

i too think it's ironic that people don't listen to fully grown women wanting sterilisation but will happily swallow the case for doing it to kids .
We don't allow minors to marry, drive , or go to war , no matter how they connipt, so what's different about potentially stunting their growth and rendering them permanently infertile , and that's BEFORE we start on expensive cosmetic procedures ?

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MisDescamisados · 02/10/2016 16:33

Thanks Winchester...needed saying , I think . People can live as they choose , but when their choices and politics place others in - even potential - danger , then forget politesse I say.

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TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 02/10/2016 16:40

I think in 20-30 years there will be investigative TV programmes looking back on the 'trans madness' and asking 'how was this allowed to happen'. I can picture them interviewing an elderly Julia Long talking about how she was shut down.

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WinchesterWoman · 02/10/2016 16:42

Transmania I call it

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MisDescamisados · 02/10/2016 16:51

@yetanotherspartacus

The nefarious already have , do , and will continue to cross dress or adopt gender identities in order to access women , and indeed , the violence rate for post transitioned persons is the same for non transitioning males .

Of cours they're all dismissed as not "real" trans , already .

What I want to know is , why are the trans lobby so wilfully obtuse about this , and the fact that loosely worded gender ID laws also endanger them , as its blindingly obvious that if anyone can just say they're a woman , then hey presto , the nefarious will do it in order to go "tranny bashing" ?

Of course , the radical feminist in me could posit that , yet again, this is an attempt to obfuscate focus from what it is , male predation on women and male violence towards everyone , even each other .

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FRETGNIKCUF · 02/10/2016 17:48

You know all this stuff about trans kids being distressed,,,, loads of kids are distressed we don't decide that being distressed means you get to distress others.
If a child is convinced that changing the way they dress and their pronouns, which is all it is, will solve all of their issues then we need to look carefully at their mental health and environmental factors. the social contagion element is staggering. Unless there used to be high (supposed high as I'm not buying the suicide shit) numbers of kids committing suicide or threatening it twenty years ago for the same "gender" issues then I think we can safely blame tumblr.

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Datun · 02/10/2016 17:52

StephanieDA

That is a great link. Anyone interested in writing a letter to their MP - click on her link, scroll down to the 'call for action' title and click on the 'use our template' link.

It's concise, rational and provides links to back it up.

I'm sending it.

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WankingMonkey · 02/10/2016 18:28

Unless there used to be high (supposed high as I'm not buying the suicide shit) numbers of kids committing suicide or threatening it twenty years ago for the same "gender" issues then I think we can safely blame tumblr

Honestly, this won't be a popular opinion among some but to me tumblr (and social media in general) is the 'pro-ana' website of today. I don't know how much experience others have had of eating disorders, but I fell into one at about 14. I was just looking for a way to lose weight fast and stumbled across a 'pro-ana' forum where they proceeded to convince me anorexia was the way to go, and encourage me to stop eating completely. Every person on there was so supportive of this. I fell for it all, cut my calories drastically for a long time, used their ways to pretend everything was fine (including chewing food infront of parents then coughing it into my hand when they look away..crazy stuff like that). Luckily my parents got this out of me fairly early on, and I do not think I was ever 'really' anorexic but more..encouraged that way? As I don't believe you can simply snap out of something like that. But it is fucking scary the influence things like this can have on people. I do not see the 'trans-encouragement' as any different tbh.

I know reddit is frowned upon, but the other daY I read a heartwarming post by someone who was in the middle of transition and having doubts. They posted about how they would never 'really' be a woman so whats the point, why not just dress/act the way they wanted to without the whole surgery and shit route. He was bombarded with messages about how he had internalized transphobia. How he had just been listening too much to TERFs. And so on. It was heart breaking to see this vulnerable person being ripped apart for simply questioning himself.

^Quite simply, do whatever makes YOU happy.

You are simply you. You are not male or female. You are you. Gender is nothing more than a personality IMO. You can look like a man, look like a woman, whatever. Who gives a shit. You are just you. Does anyone really 'feel' like their sex? Nah..you just feel like you, your sex is something different entirely.

I would advise you to stay away from the internet whilst working through your issues. This way you cannot be swayed either by those who reckon you are wrong for stopping transition, those who think you are wrong for transitioning in the first place, those who will convince you transition is the only way to be happy...all of it basically. This decision will affect you for the rest of your life. Do not allow a few keyboard warriors (myself included) to influence your decision in ANY way.^

I hope you can be happy at some stage in the future.

Was my answer to him. I then received 3 private messages telling me to kill myself and such. Lovely...

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WankingMonkey · 02/10/2016 18:28

Sorry my italic failed a lot there, hopefully the post can still be made sense of

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CharlieSierra · 02/10/2016 19:36

StephanieDA

That is fantastic, you have saved me from having to compose a difficult letter.

I think it would be good to start a new thread, giving the link, and clearly showing what it's about. I'm going to send it, or a version, to everyone I can think of.

Thank you.

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zsazsagaboredom · 02/10/2016 19:40

StephanieDA
Excellent resource.
Thank you for collating this. I now have it bookmarked. Call for action!

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CharlieSierra · 02/10/2016 20:13

I've taken the liberty of posting the link on a new call to action thread.

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LumpySpacedPrincess · 02/10/2016 20:32

It's crazy to even consider abolishing sex segregation when harassment of girls is at an all time high. Angry

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