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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans in children's and young people's services

474 replies

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/10/2016 14:58

OK … I can’t hold this in any longer. I went searching for a safe space to talk about trans issues and I found you guys (as per a previous post). I’m really hoping that you won’t think I’m stirring the trans pot for the sake of it. I really do have concerns.

I teach people who will one day, amongst other roles, work with boys, girls, young women, young men, parents and others in a range of ‘social care’ roles. This includes child and youth services and protection. In both my teaching, and the broader sector of practice that I prepare people to work in, I am facing a wall of ignorant, unthinking, militant trans orthodoxy, or a general fear of challenging this, or downright don’t-give-a rat’s-ism. The kinds of things that I hear people (and these are people with power as teachers, workers and even policy-makers) say uncritically (and as if they were droning a script) are:

  • trans children have the brains of the opposite gender
  • children should not need court consent, counselling or parental permission to have puberty blockers or hormonal drugs
  • if a child wants to access PB’s or other hormonal drugs and the parents object, it should become a child-protection matter
  • children should be watched for gender variant behaviour
  • children should learn about trans from an early age
  • all school toilets should be gender-neutral
  • boys / men should be allowed into women’s / girls’ facilities if they say they are girls. Girls should not object.
  • single-sex residential care homes (for girls, often those who have been sexually abused) should accept males who say they are female (even though we know there are high levels of sexual abuse in care homes)
  • terms such a ‘women’ or ‘girls’ should be changes to ‘people who identify as …’


Beyond this, I have the following experiences:
  • teaching a small but significant number of males who identify as ‘queer’, ‘trans’ or ‘female’ who have made it clear that they are entering the area to ‘save’ trans children from not being able to transition
  • being told by management that the official position is ‘pro-trans’
  • being told by some students that I am transphobic if I mention ‘women’. One was a ‘trans’ male who dressed in leather and studs and wore shirts with violent imagery and slogans.
  • having colleagues tell me that they think the orthodoxy is rubbish, but being afraid to speak out (as am I)
  • being in a meeting of practitioners and told that we must use ‘persons who identify as …’ instead of ‘women’ or ‘men’
  • being in a meeting of practitioners and being shown a ‘trans-positive’ manual that advises that trans boys be allowed into girls’ spaces (camps, homes, detention facilities, etc.)
  • raising an actual instance of harassment of a young lesbian by a trans man and general instances of lesbians being denied lesbian-spaces to be told that ‘trans comes first because they are so oppressed’.


This does not happen all the time, and nor is it ‘me against the world’, but it is prevalent enough to concern me and make me feel marginalised and silenced.

The reason I am writing this, apart from to get it off my chest and hopefully find some people who don’t think I am nuts for questioning it, is that I don’t think this is spoken of much (i.e. institutional responses to trans issues). Plus, these people have power over the lives of individuals, and some have the ears of policy-makers. Some make policies for organisations. This isn’t stuff happening on social media – it’s real – and to me it is terrifying because it can lead to the abuse of children, whether they be ‘trans’ kids or girls.

We don’t know the long-term effects of a set of drugs (PB’s) that were developed as an emergency measure to allow the treatment of some childhood cancers. We don’t really know much about child-transitioners. We don’t know much about the long term effects of hormone therapies on children’s bodies. Yet, we have generally moved away from a treatment regime that saw medical and surgical interventions as the last means to the first. Counselling and other therapies have fallen out of favour – and indeed are seen as ‘oppressive’ by some. This has all happened so fast that we don’t really know much at all, beyond isolated and mostly non-longitudinal studies. We know that some variants of ‘the pill’ have had detrimental effects, as has HRT – why are people naïve enough to think that hormonal treatments on young children are going to be magically better?

The issue of boys in girls’ and women’s spaces has been spoken of here, but I worry for girls who have no (or inadequate) parents to care for them or look after them, such as those in justice centres or care homes. These are vulnerable children.

Honestly, I know that many of us are wondering when this trans rubbish will dissipate, but I can’t help thinking that it might take a class-action of young people with cancers or a girls or two to be raped / murdered by a male claiming to be ‘trans’ for this to happen.
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CheerfulYank · 03/10/2016 03:53

It's just all so bizarre. I can't really believe anyone buys into it.

There is no such thing as a "birth gender". There's birth SEX and there's no changing that. Anything else is bonkers. Gender isn't real, it's something forced onto everyone by society in an attempt to oppress people and sell shit.

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StephanieDA · 03/10/2016 09:22

Great idea CharlieSierra - I suspect most MPs just never hear the other side of the story because to speak of it is not allowed. The more who hear that their constituents are worried the better.

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FRETGNIKCUF · 03/10/2016 11:50

Atransmum

Thank you for your opinions but I have issues with much of your statistics.

Can you please site your source for the trans suicide rates being higher than say men 45-59 or other LGB people. Can you ensure that these stats rule out other mental health issues too? As we know that dysphoria sufferers also present other complications with their mental health.
I would also need stats for actual suicide not attempted, unless that attempt is an actual attempt not a "cry for help never meant to take my own life anyway" attempt. I'm a little harsh I guess but can such a large number of people actually "commit suicide", is it really that hard? (not that I want people to, but I'm just not buying the stats, I think it's either people say i"ve thought about suicide or taking three paracetamol and saying they've overdosed.... you know in a bid to get they own way)
HuffPo is emotive hyperbole and so sources of stats are essential over "sky rockets" or "shockingly high levels of violence".

As an example of what I see as trans myth get their own way agenda bullshit, the child most likely bullied at school is one with ASD... not gay, not trans, not a lesbian, not black.... ASD (including autism) this is over a 90% likelihood. And I'm not seeing campaigns about them, I suspect they have high actual suicide rates too....

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IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat · 03/10/2016 12:21

I read this article today and take my hat off to this man. We need more professionals/academics to stand up against this

I am not a bigot

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IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat · 03/10/2016 12:27

The pronoun issue is straightforward,” added Peterson. “I won’t mouth the words of ideologues, because when you do that you become a puppet for their ideology.

Totally This ^^

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WankingMonkey · 03/10/2016 12:43

CO: You have said that you don't believe that there is enough evidence that non-binary gender identities even exist?

No. I didn't say that actually. If I'm going to be accused of saying things I have to be accused of exactly what I said. There's not enough evidence to make the case that gender identity and biological sexuality are independently varying constructs. In fact, all the evidence suggests that they're not independently varying constructs. I can tell you that transgender people make the same argument. They make the argument that a man can be born in a woman's body and that's actually an argument that specifies a biological linkage between gender identity and biological sex. I'm also not objecting to transgender people. I'm objecting to poorly written legislation and the foisting of ideological motivated legislation on a population that's not ready for it.

Perfect response, and I can't see how anyone could argue against it? This guy talks to much fucking sense. We need more willing to stand up, especially in professional fields.

The tone of the interview though really suggests that he is wrong from the start. Takes a strong person to publicly state a view that goes against the current ideology.

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YetAnotherSpartacus · 03/10/2016 12:44

I typed a lovely, long eloquent post yesterday and pressed something that was obviously wrong and it got eaten. Here is a tired attempt at mark 2!

Wanking Monkey (Is there a thread where user names are explained anywhere??) – I have no fucking doubt that a lot of so called dysphoria is induced by teh interwebs and by ‘groomers’ who have controlling impulses and like to influence others. There, I said it. I don’t think they are grooming for sex, but I think they are, like cult leaders, grooming converts. I also think that ‘trans’ (or genderqueer) is more of a youth subculture than anything else. It’s the modern punk without the moral panic and hordes of shocked adults. That’s absolutely not to discount that there are genuinely damaged and hurting individuals out there – but I just don’t believe the current numbers or some of the very public behaviours. I’m sorry you had that experience with the young person you tried to help. My guess is that the young person’s post received many more ‘go on, you can do it’, don’t lose hope’ style posts (just like pro-ana sites). This was either likely what it was seeking, or the poster bowed to peer pressure and the fear of losing community.

Stephanie – thank you so much for such a wonderful resource. It is one of the clearest and best I have read.

Datun – yes it gives me chills too. I’m much calmer now, though, than I was before I posted here, knowing that there are many ‘like-minded’ people outside of the polarised internet wars. I guess what I saw before was a couple of armies going head to head on the internet, but here I have found a groundswell of common sense that has calmed me. Not that the radfems don’t make sense because they do. It is just that I am now reassured that there are silent supporters outside of those doing battle.

I had seen the article and will use it if I can (the only thing is that people don’t want to listen to reason right now).

Other than this I have a screaming desire to go and read The Crucible ...

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WankingMonkey · 03/10/2016 12:46

The whole interview in fact is just bang on. I do believe there is a (tenous) link between gender and sex. But this is ingrained into us by a repressive society. Nothing else.

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WankingMonkey · 03/10/2016 12:50

(Is there a thread where user names are explained anywhere??)

Heh no. But this may explain mine a bit

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2713004-To-complain-to-the-zoo-about-the-wanking-monkeys

It spawned from there. I was actually HornyTortoise at one point too. I swear I don't have a thing for sexual animals Blush Its all because of that thread.

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Datun · 03/10/2016 14:45

Wanking Monkey
Can you elaborate on this? Not a trick question.

... I do believe there is a (tenous) link between gender and sex. But this is ingrained into us by a repressive society. Nothing else.

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WankingMonkey · 03/10/2016 15:15

Sure.

'Gender' IMO is personality and socialization. So aspects of this are shaped by experiences. For example, a girl may 'feel like a girl' because she has been protected all her life where her brother has been allowed to rough and tumble. So the way she was treated was because of her biological sex.

Its the only way I can make sense of 'feeling like a female' and such.

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WinchesterWoman · 03/10/2016 15:27

I used to think that my boys naturally gravitated to trucks and my girl to 'girl toys'. The truth is probably more that they gravitated to 'their' toys, the toys they were given, the toys they were routinely presented with, the toys they saw in adverts we're 'for them'. They weren't stopped from playing with anything else but we went to the 'girl's toy shop section for her, and the 'boys' for them. Relatives would give them boys and girls toys and they would be 'their' toys. It was so easy for me to see once I'd thought it through.

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WankingMonkey · 03/10/2016 15:49

Same here WW. Now that I look at it, there is really no reason why a little boy would chose 'boys' stuff for himself, and vice versa. Kids like toys, any toys. Even the little girls and dolls thing..I do think girls in general tend to float more towards dolls and kitchens and stuff. BUT I think this is because for most little girls, they see their mother holding the baby more, and cooking and stuff so are just trying to recreate what they see, rather than having a natural preference. Our kids have a toy kitchen thing that they got as one of their 'joint' gifts at xmas (bigger stuff tends to be to share, as we aren't that well off) and DD delights in telling me to get off it because 'the kitchen is daddies'. This may have something to do with how I rarely cook and its nearly always DH Grin But we are a bit..non-typical in that way.

So much stuff seemed to be 'nature' to me until I thought about it properly. Girls liking dresses and such...but its what they have always known in some cases. My parents, the first thing they ought for DD was a beautiful dress for a photoshoot when she was born. Because thats what 'girls' get. In turn, many girls stick to this. But when you think about it, it used to be well off men who wore elaborate dresses more often than not. Its nearly all society made stuff, and varies from culture to culture too. Which is why I have a hard job understanding the born in the wrong body thing as a guy who felt uncomfortable in himself due to 'gender' stuff...if born in another part of the world where his preferences were more typical for a boy...they wouldn't be 'in the wrong body' then? A huge reason why 'transgender' and 'transsexual' need to be separate. And why transsexual people, who feel genuine distress at their body and such, should be treat along the same line as BDD sufferers. Some BDD is 'cured' by plastic surgery. This does not mean that, for example, the BDD sufferer who detests her nose so much it affects her day to day life and causes extreme distress...was actually born with the wrong nose.

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ChocChocPorridge · 03/10/2016 16:46

Even when you know this stuff, it's still hard - DS1 wears what he's given (couldn't care less) so he has stuff from the boys section (plus I like primary colours).

DS2 is more opinionated, and loves pink, so he has pink crocs, if whatever he needs comes in pink, he chooses the pink one, and even though I know it doesn't matter, I still have to remind myself that it's OK for him to pick a pink fairy wand as toy treat for potty training, because automatically, you think 'hmmm, he'll get teased for that, better steer him towards something more intended for boys' then your second thoughts say 'NO! Let him have what he bloody likes'

I thank goodness my mum was already like that when I was a kid (toy aeroplanes and robots) - and that it was the 80s when we were allowed to be kids

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Datun · 03/10/2016 17:45

Thanks for answering, and I agree - my own DS's played with Barbies, kitchens, etc,.

However, I find it harder to uphold my argument when there are every-day discernible differences, not easily explained by socialisation. Why men don't chat on the phone for hours to their friends, why they can't find things when they're right in front of them (I know women have more brain cells devoted to colour vision and have wider peripheral vision - but that is a difference, isn't it?) Why autism is more prevalent in males (and sometimes known as 'extreme male brain'?) What makes men more violent in the first place? Why ARE they more predatory than women?

As I'm talking more about these issues with people, I'm trying to get my head straight.

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WinchesterWoman · 03/10/2016 17:58

Darby - why men can't find things - my theories are
Laziness
Women 'do the housework so know where everything is'
Socialised entitlement - they know someone else will look for them

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WinchesterWoman · 03/10/2016 17:59

I may be projecting my own experiences here (cough)

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WinchesterWoman · 03/10/2016 18:00

The autism is something to do with testosterone I think

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WinchesterWoman · 03/10/2016 18:01

Violence and predation - isn't that testosterone too as well as socialization?

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WinchesterWoman · 03/10/2016 18:02

Darby? DatunSmile

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CharlieSierra · 03/10/2016 18:04

I don't think that not chatting on the phone and difficulty finding things are difficult to explain by socialisation. Women chat about how we feel about things, but we are socialised to be ok with expressing our feelings, boys generally aren't so much. Finding things could be to do with the fact that they are more used to having things done for them, especially things associated with 'women's work'. I don't know this, but it seems a reasonable explanation. I have never heard of that reference in autism though.

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Datun · 03/10/2016 18:30

Ah, found it.
www.cheatsheet.com/health-fitness/science-explains-why-women-talk-more-than-men.html/?a=viewall

Mtt were studied, both before and after they were given testosterone. Afterwards, the language part of the brain, reacted differently.

So hormones do seem to be responsible for a lot of the differences.

It's rather begs the question that if you feel you are born 'with a female brain', why you need the hormones to transition in the first place

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noeffingidea · 03/10/2016 18:34

Datun I'm a woman, and I never chat for ages on the phone (or at least not since my Mum died).I can never think of anything to talk about.
I'm sure there are plenty of men who do have long phone conversations.
Those are just stereotypes really, and there are plenty of men and women who don't fit into them.
There are physiological explanations for the other examples you gave.

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Datun · 03/10/2016 18:40

Thanks everyone. I personally need no convincing regarding brain sex, I just want to make sure my arguments are watertight.

I always forget about hormones (tricky little feckers)

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WankingMonkey · 03/10/2016 18:57

The autism link has intrigued me for a while actually. Violence I think is easily explained by testosterone levels, women become more violent with more testosterone too generally. More predatory as...nature. They are stronger on average and just how we mate, its him in control really, like with most other creatures.

Chatting on the phone is a socialization thing to me. Men are meant to keep their feelings/thoguhts hidden where women are 'allowed' to natter on nonestop. A guy who was wittering on for 2 hours about something would generally be told by mates to STFU and drink his pint Grin

I am weird in that sense too...my mother says its like talking to a bloke when she rings for a talk and I give all single word replies and try to get rid of her ASAP. I can talk face to face though..just not on the phone. And never as much as women 'stereotypically' do.

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