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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans in children's and young people's services

474 replies

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/10/2016 14:58

OK … I can’t hold this in any longer. I went searching for a safe space to talk about trans issues and I found you guys (as per a previous post). I’m really hoping that you won’t think I’m stirring the trans pot for the sake of it. I really do have concerns.

I teach people who will one day, amongst other roles, work with boys, girls, young women, young men, parents and others in a range of ‘social care’ roles. This includes child and youth services and protection. In both my teaching, and the broader sector of practice that I prepare people to work in, I am facing a wall of ignorant, unthinking, militant trans orthodoxy, or a general fear of challenging this, or downright don’t-give-a rat’s-ism. The kinds of things that I hear people (and these are people with power as teachers, workers and even policy-makers) say uncritically (and as if they were droning a script) are:

  • trans children have the brains of the opposite gender
  • children should not need court consent, counselling or parental permission to have puberty blockers or hormonal drugs
  • if a child wants to access PB’s or other hormonal drugs and the parents object, it should become a child-protection matter
  • children should be watched for gender variant behaviour
  • children should learn about trans from an early age
  • all school toilets should be gender-neutral
  • boys / men should be allowed into women’s / girls’ facilities if they say they are girls. Girls should not object.
  • single-sex residential care homes (for girls, often those who have been sexually abused) should accept males who say they are female (even though we know there are high levels of sexual abuse in care homes)
  • terms such a ‘women’ or ‘girls’ should be changes to ‘people who identify as …’

Beyond this, I have the following experiences:

  • teaching a small but significant number of males who identify as ‘queer’, ‘trans’ or ‘female’ who have made it clear that they are entering the area to ‘save’ trans children from not being able to transition
  • being told by management that the official position is ‘pro-trans’
  • being told by some students that I am transphobic if I mention ‘women’. One was a ‘trans’ male who dressed in leather and studs and wore shirts with violent imagery and slogans.
  • having colleagues tell me that they think the orthodoxy is rubbish, but being afraid to speak out (as am I)
  • being in a meeting of practitioners and told that we must use ‘persons who identify as …’ instead of ‘women’ or ‘men’
  • being in a meeting of practitioners and being shown a ‘trans-positive’ manual that advises that trans boys be allowed into girls’ spaces (camps, homes, detention facilities, etc.)
  • raising an actual instance of harassment of a young lesbian by a trans man and general instances of lesbians being denied lesbian-spaces to be told that ‘trans comes first because they are so oppressed’.

This does not happen all the time, and nor is it ‘me against the world’, but it is prevalent enough to concern me and make me feel marginalised and silenced.

The reason I am writing this, apart from to get it off my chest and hopefully find some people who don’t think I am nuts for questioning it, is that I don’t think this is spoken of much (i.e. institutional responses to trans issues). Plus, these people have power over the lives of individuals, and some have the ears of policy-makers. Some make policies for organisations. This isn’t stuff happening on social media – it’s real – and to me it is terrifying because it can lead to the abuse of children, whether they be ‘trans’ kids or girls.

We don’t know the long-term effects of a set of drugs (PB’s) that were developed as an emergency measure to allow the treatment of some childhood cancers. We don’t really know much about child-transitioners. We don’t know much about the long term effects of hormone therapies on children’s bodies. Yet, we have generally moved away from a treatment regime that saw medical and surgical interventions as the last means to the first. Counselling and other therapies have fallen out of favour – and indeed are seen as ‘oppressive’ by some. This has all happened so fast that we don’t really know much at all, beyond isolated and mostly non-longitudinal studies. We know that some variants of ‘the pill’ have had detrimental effects, as has HRT – why are people naïve enough to think that hormonal treatments on young children are going to be magically better?

The issue of boys in girls’ and women’s spaces has been spoken of here, but I worry for girls who have no (or inadequate) parents to care for them or look after them, such as those in justice centres or care homes. These are vulnerable children.

Honestly, I know that many of us are wondering when this trans rubbish will dissipate, but I can’t help thinking that it might take a class-action of young people with cancers or a girls or two to be raped / murdered by a male claiming to be ‘trans’ for this to happen.

OP posts:
WankingMonkey · 03/10/2016 18:59

It's rather begs the question that if you feel you are born 'with a female brain', why you need the hormones to transition in the first place

Indeed.

WinchesterWoman · 03/10/2016 19:03

'It's rather begs the question that if you feel you are born 'with a female brain', why you need the hormones to transition in the first place'

Well this is it. People may point to differences due to hormones. But if they had the female hormones in the first place to make them different… why the need for hormones, why do they change with hormones, why do transmen become more aggressive if they we're already 'male', and so on. The only thing that would make sense is an actually brain marker for sex regardless of hormones. It doesn't exist though so a lot of other woolly arguments are relied upon.

WinchesterWoman · 03/10/2016 19:04

Oh I just googled autism testosterone and there's quite a lot of literature. I read a lot years ago and cba to read it now so I couldn't for the life of me tell you what it says!

SomeDyke · 03/10/2016 19:20

Excellent link Flattie, many thanks!

I particularly liked this line:
" I reserve the right to use my own language and I'm perfectly willing to take that to its conclusion. If it's the case that I can't use my language the way that I see fit, because I'm using my language to formulate and articulate the truth in the clearest manner I can possibly manage and if that lands me in legal trouble — well, so be it."

Which is of course what someone at a university should be doing, articulating the truth (as opposed, say, to making students, or indeed other professors, feel comfortable!).

I'm still amazed at how quickly using what someone else sees as the 'wrong' pronouns has possibly become an offence! I mean, seems I can legitimately (in academia) call someone an idiot, or mistaken, or loads of other non-flattering language, provided I can present some evidence or reason for that usage. But not being able to call someone else male by using 'he' when they demonstrably are male? Even if they don't like being reminded of that, or would prefer I use 'zir' or 'they' or 'wibble' for all I know.......................

You do not own what someone else says about you, even if all they are saying is using conventional usage which admits you are male/female. God, I got called he at least twice today on the train, and I managed to refrain from threatening to prosecute anyone, and after some struggle can finally admit that it caused me no problems at all -- it's just silly gender roles that leads people to label someone with a shaved head as male (and from a probabilistic point of view, it is actually the correct solution if no further information is available!).

Datun · 03/10/2016 19:58

It's all so bloody ludicrous.

I do think it will reach critical mass at some point, when the reporting becomes more prevalent. And the entire edifice will topple, like the house of cards it is.

TheQuestingVole · 03/10/2016 20:06

Datun But talking is social behaviour - like any other social behaviour it can be influenced by there being different social expectations for each sex. Women are socialised to talk more, beginning from infancy - there's some evidence that female caregivers (who of course comprise most caregivers) talk more to female babies than to male ones. Girls are expected to interact in social conversation more than boys. So it starts very young.

Men not finding things - because they expect women to be responsible for boring trivial things like finding stuff.

Male violence has everything to do with socialisation - if you look at male children who grow up in a household with a father who is abusive to their mother they are far more likely to replicate this pattern in their own relationships than other boys. The same thing happens on a society-wide scale when the models of masculinity that boys are presented with as they grow up are violent ones - when you live in a culture in which men disproportionately are the perpetrators of rape and murder - which is every culture btw - that is the social model you pass on to the next generation.

Autism - everything I have seen on the gendered distribution of autism diagnosis suggests that autism in girls is massively, massively underdiagnosed - because girls are encouraged to interact socially more than boys are, girls with autism get more practice and observation of social behaviour than boys and are able to mask their symptoms better.

Datun · 03/10/2016 20:21

Thanks Vole every little helps.

Grin
Datun · 03/10/2016 21:02

And that's the other thing SomeDyke. Why is it so heinous to mid-gender? We all like validation of being, say, a good parent, a true friend, skilful lover. If someone said 'you're shit in bed' or even 'you're a crap mum' - it might piss me off briefly, but that's it. Why the all-consuming fragility over mis-gendering ?

WinchesterWoman · 03/10/2016 21:07

Datun - I read that as every little vole helps.

MatildaOfTuscany · 03/10/2016 21:21

Datun - the "women talk more than men" thing has been thoroughly debunked - Deborah Cameron has an excellent chapter on it in The Myth of Mars and Venus. Within the sampling error, overall, there's no difference. Context, however, is all. If you take married couples, for instance, women will talk more in social situations which is "their area of expertise", men more in social situations which are seen as "their area of expertise".

Datun · 03/10/2016 21:39

Thank you *Matilda' - every little does help.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim · 03/10/2016 21:45

As the parent of a ds with autism I would really hate to see his conditions and problems conflated with this trans bullshit.
A statistic for you; average life expectancy for a person diagnosed with autism is 39. Leading cause of premature death among people with high functioning autism is suicide.
So Forgive me but I have no space to worry about the trans agenda and its idiotic theorising about brain structure. There is no such thing as the male or female brain and there are many women with asd (I myself score high in the AQ, and I have never felt remotely "like a man" - although god know what would have happened to me as a child if this trans bs had been current then)

WinchesterWoman · 03/10/2016 21:46

Karlos x

shinynewusername · 03/10/2016 21:47

Fucking hell, you heartless TERFs. Now you are literally killing voles with your gender criticism Grin

Datun · 03/10/2016 22:02

Verfs.

shinynewusername · 03/10/2016 22:06

Smile Datun

JedRambosteen · 03/10/2016 22:49

I don't get vole reference, but it made me smile nonetheless.

Bifflepants · 04/10/2016 05:27

New research shows that females carry protective genetic material for ASD on their X chromosome. So they need extra genetic predisposition for ASD to actually demonstrate the behaviours associated with it. www.autismspeaks.org/science/science-news/autism-and-female-protective-effect

YetAnotherSpartacus · 04/10/2016 06:40

I keep getting messages eaten... apart from remembering to compose elsewhere and paste does anyone know why this is? The page seems to spontaneously refresh itself, or maybe I am accidentally hitting a particular combination of keys that nukes the message / causes the page to refresh?

OP posts:
hazeyjane · 04/10/2016 06:47

Biffle, do you have any links aboutvthat study that don't come via Autism Speaks?

CoteDAzur · 04/10/2016 07:00

"New research shows that females carry protective genetic material for ASD on their X chromosome"

I read that study and don't see that conclusion supported at all.

What it shows is less mutations on DNAs of females with autism. It not possible to conclude from this data that the DNA is resistant against autism, since they don't know which gene or mutation is responsible for making one susceptible to ASD in the first place.

ATransMum · 04/10/2016 13:30

It's rather begs the question that if you feel you are born 'with a female brain', why you need the hormones to transition in the first place

To align your body and external presentation with your brain. That's why.

As someone who has been on Oestrogen for 11 months I can confirm the effects are worthwhile. Plus it eases dysphoria surprisingly quickly. Some of this is simply because you know you are heading the right way (not quite a placebo effect).

Questions about suicide stats

I don't have the raw figures, and frankly don't have time to do the research. I never said trans people are the most affected group out of all young people. I said our stats are high.

And if you want to start classifying suicide attempts by 'attention seeking' versus 'actually trying to kill yourself' then good luck with that. Personally I'm not going to make that call either way, and that's a horribly slippery slope.

Respecting pronouns

Is it really that hard? People have a name which nobody has a problem with respecting. You have a title which is sometimes genderless (Prof., Dr) (and women get to call themselves Ms for arbitrary reasons).

Some of the newer non-binary ones take a bit of getting used to, but calling someone he/she or they really isn't the end of society is it?

It seems you want a gender free world but complain over the idea of addressing someone as they...

ASD

There are strong correlations between being trans and ASD which is being investigated at the moment. This isn't a 'poor trans people' line, it's an interesting observation. I'm not sure if there is a causality / brain chemistry / genetic correlation and wouldn't want to call that.

The correlation between the tech industry and being trans is also quite interesting (whether that relates to ASD or simply better online access / knowledge is questionable).

Been travelling so probably a few other things to catch up on...

ATransMum · 04/10/2016 14:14

I'm sure I said please don't bring up John Hopkins or Paul McHugh. Or mention Walt Heyer...

Just ask for Paul McHugh's opinion on homosexuality for a clue (hint: "[Homosexuality] is erroneous desire." from his article here: www.virtueonline.org/charleston-sc-dr-paul-mchugh-there-no-gay-gene).

Equally that Swedish study?

transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm

That's an interview with the person that conducted it debunking the claims that several anti-LGBT organisations (including notable TERFs and our old favourite Paul McHugh) made. Similar correlation exists between other issues post treatment as well - should we stop treating those?

Using cis people as a control group doesn't work. You need to use 'untreated' trans people as a control group. Which is sadly somewhat unethical.

That's the problem here - you have a viewpoint on this which comes from your education, background and 'think of the children' mentality. I live inside an LGBT bubble where being trans is acceptable, but I'm also a scientist at heart. A lot of the arguments I face aren't based on science but on religious diatribe or people blowing risks out of proportion.

The challenge is not suffering from confirmation bias but looking at evidence critically. Not trying to say 'oh, but people could lie about taking hormones'. Or only finding evidence to back up your own assumptions, not the contra points.

Imaginary scenarios and anecdotal evidence aren't science.

Even the New Scientist article (which I read with great interest as it's one of my favourite magazines) didn't categorically say 'pink and blue brains don't exist'. It said

"Here we show that, although there are sex/gender differences in brain and behavior, humans and human brains are comprised of unique “mosaics” of features, some more common in females compared with males, some more common in males compared with females, and some common in both females and males". (Source)

In fact if you look at this figure (from the actual research in that New Scientist article):

Look at diagram E. That's the gendered structures in the brain, categorized by birth sex, coloured by whether they match male or female characteristics based on the study (white means 'in the middle somewhere).

Draw your own conclusions from that.

Personally I'd love to see that study conducted on trans brains (before and after hormones) to see how they compare. And even better if it was a double-blind study.

MatildaOfTuscany · 04/10/2016 14:21

"I'm sure I said please don't bring up John Hopkins "

You may well have said this, but - NEWSFLASH - you don't get to dictate the terms of the discussion.

Datun · 04/10/2016 14:23

Hi ATM - still wondering how you weed out the undesirables from my lav tho'.

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