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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans in children's and young people's services

474 replies

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/10/2016 14:58

OK … I can’t hold this in any longer. I went searching for a safe space to talk about trans issues and I found you guys (as per a previous post). I’m really hoping that you won’t think I’m stirring the trans pot for the sake of it. I really do have concerns.

I teach people who will one day, amongst other roles, work with boys, girls, young women, young men, parents and others in a range of ‘social care’ roles. This includes child and youth services and protection. In both my teaching, and the broader sector of practice that I prepare people to work in, I am facing a wall of ignorant, unthinking, militant trans orthodoxy, or a general fear of challenging this, or downright don’t-give-a rat’s-ism. The kinds of things that I hear people (and these are people with power as teachers, workers and even policy-makers) say uncritically (and as if they were droning a script) are:

  • trans children have the brains of the opposite gender
  • children should not need court consent, counselling or parental permission to have puberty blockers or hormonal drugs
  • if a child wants to access PB’s or other hormonal drugs and the parents object, it should become a child-protection matter
  • children should be watched for gender variant behaviour
  • children should learn about trans from an early age
  • all school toilets should be gender-neutral
  • boys / men should be allowed into women’s / girls’ facilities if they say they are girls. Girls should not object.
  • single-sex residential care homes (for girls, often those who have been sexually abused) should accept males who say they are female (even though we know there are high levels of sexual abuse in care homes)
  • terms such a ‘women’ or ‘girls’ should be changes to ‘people who identify as …’

Beyond this, I have the following experiences:

  • teaching a small but significant number of males who identify as ‘queer’, ‘trans’ or ‘female’ who have made it clear that they are entering the area to ‘save’ trans children from not being able to transition
  • being told by management that the official position is ‘pro-trans’
  • being told by some students that I am transphobic if I mention ‘women’. One was a ‘trans’ male who dressed in leather and studs and wore shirts with violent imagery and slogans.
  • having colleagues tell me that they think the orthodoxy is rubbish, but being afraid to speak out (as am I)
  • being in a meeting of practitioners and told that we must use ‘persons who identify as …’ instead of ‘women’ or ‘men’
  • being in a meeting of practitioners and being shown a ‘trans-positive’ manual that advises that trans boys be allowed into girls’ spaces (camps, homes, detention facilities, etc.)
  • raising an actual instance of harassment of a young lesbian by a trans man and general instances of lesbians being denied lesbian-spaces to be told that ‘trans comes first because they are so oppressed’.

This does not happen all the time, and nor is it ‘me against the world’, but it is prevalent enough to concern me and make me feel marginalised and silenced.

The reason I am writing this, apart from to get it off my chest and hopefully find some people who don’t think I am nuts for questioning it, is that I don’t think this is spoken of much (i.e. institutional responses to trans issues). Plus, these people have power over the lives of individuals, and some have the ears of policy-makers. Some make policies for organisations. This isn’t stuff happening on social media – it’s real – and to me it is terrifying because it can lead to the abuse of children, whether they be ‘trans’ kids or girls.

We don’t know the long-term effects of a set of drugs (PB’s) that were developed as an emergency measure to allow the treatment of some childhood cancers. We don’t really know much about child-transitioners. We don’t know much about the long term effects of hormone therapies on children’s bodies. Yet, we have generally moved away from a treatment regime that saw medical and surgical interventions as the last means to the first. Counselling and other therapies have fallen out of favour – and indeed are seen as ‘oppressive’ by some. This has all happened so fast that we don’t really know much at all, beyond isolated and mostly non-longitudinal studies. We know that some variants of ‘the pill’ have had detrimental effects, as has HRT – why are people naïve enough to think that hormonal treatments on young children are going to be magically better?

The issue of boys in girls’ and women’s spaces has been spoken of here, but I worry for girls who have no (or inadequate) parents to care for them or look after them, such as those in justice centres or care homes. These are vulnerable children.

Honestly, I know that many of us are wondering when this trans rubbish will dissipate, but I can’t help thinking that it might take a class-action of young people with cancers or a girls or two to be raped / murdered by a male claiming to be ‘trans’ for this to happen.

OP posts:
FirstShinyRobe · 01/10/2016 18:26

I get the use of them in the first place Felascloak, although I am deeply uncomfortable about them. It's what happens if the decision is taken to then transition. Are the individuals then developmentally juvenile forever?

Felascloak · 01/10/2016 18:31

I'm not sure. I don't think they block hormones like growth hormone. So you would end up adult height with no secondary sexual characteristics. Boys would have smaller penis, no facial hair, smaller Adams apple. Girls would have smaller breasts and hips.
I also share the concern with respect to brain development. Puberty is the shift from child to adult. It seems reasonable to me that interfering with that could also interfere with developing adult cognitive abilities.

FirstShinyRobe · 01/10/2016 18:57

OP, can you keep talking to those who share your concerns? And gently raise questions when the situation allows? Like asking to people to expand about what they mean by gender variant behaviour? (I would ask for a list, myself, and then ask who devised the list, then ponder whether it's all just personality, with an MN head tilt) Just like on MN, it may be that people have both not thought really thought about the implications of all of this and also feel that they are alone in their discomfort.

BombadierFritz · 01/10/2016 19:03

all I would like to say today on the matter is that anyone who is peddling the utter shite of gendered brain is no scientific thinker.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 01/10/2016 19:06

I disagree with this. Medical consent for any treatment should rest with the parent until age 18

That statement shows how little you know about being a girl or a woman if you seriously think parents should have control over a girl's access to contraception or abortion until she is 18.

Kr1stina · 01/10/2016 19:14

How woudl that fit with the current legislation on the age of legal capacity ?

Amandahugandkisses · 01/10/2016 19:16

What a truly worrying OP.

vesuvia · 01/10/2016 19:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ageingrunner · 01/10/2016 19:35

Apparently brain development is not fully complete until the age of 25. Afaik puberty and the correct sex hormones acting on the brain are crucial to complete brain maturation. If my child decided they were trans, I would move heaven and earth to avoid any blockers/hormones being given to them. It's frighteningly unevidenced practice. There are going to be a lot of damaged, litigious young adults in the future.
There are some interesting but heartbreaking detransitioner videos on YouTube which tell exactly how little appropriate psychological support theses children get, and also how quickly hormones are prescribed.

hazeyjane · 01/10/2016 19:47

A friend who is a Ta in a primary school had to attend an awareness course, part of which talked about 'inclusive' sex education (wrt trans issues), talked about schools aiming for gender neutral toilers and changing rooms and included a glossary of terms including 'cis'. Up until this course my friend had been of the belief that my attitudes to the current trans agenda were a bizarrely bigoted blip in my normal right on personality. After this course she too is Spartacus.

zsazsagaboredom · 01/10/2016 20:48

vesuvia
That quote from Ferri's Clinical Advisor: The irreversible effects of puberty blockers include "masculine voice changes, areola enlargement with darkening, hair changes and clitoromegaly
is in reference to cross sex hormones not puberty blockers.
On the same page it states that puberty blockers are completely reversible

The issue with puberty blockers arises because a majority of kids taking them go on to take cross sex hormones, as something of an inevitability.

FirstShinyRobe · 01/10/2016 20:52

I don't get the "completely reversible" bit, either. So, if you take them till you're 60, you'll go through the puberty of your sex then?

vesuvia · 01/10/2016 20:56

zsazsagaboredom, thanks for the correction.

EmilySunshine · 01/10/2016 20:56

i think children need to just be allowed to be children. why make things so complicated for them? all they need to know about trans is to be taught not to treat trans persons (or anyone else different from themselves) as freaks.

RiverTam · 01/10/2016 21:02

I read on here recently that the NHS will not diagnose schizophrenia in children as they say that identity hasn't settled until adulthood (I think that was it). Is that true? Because that is surely in direct opposition to assisting children on the path to transition.

I'd be very interested to hear from anyone with experience or knowledge in this area.

OP, it's terrifying, isn't it?

FirstShinyRobe · 01/10/2016 21:03

I just don't get the certainty either of the trans people themselves when no-one can give a straight answer to any of the questions about gender feelings nor of their allies that are changing the whole landscape whilst throwing women under the bus without a serious thought in their heads.

Ffs, if it were that easy to achieve change , feminism would have achieved its goals years ago. Which makes me ponder why. My conclusions aren't happy ones.

ageingrunner · 01/10/2016 21:08

youthtranscriticalprofessionals.org

4thwavenow.com

Sorry if someone's already linked to these 2 sites but they seem really relevant to you, op

zsazsagaboredom · 01/10/2016 21:09

I have no idea!
Quite why anyone might persist in delaying puberty for 50 years is beyond me. Studying the effect of withdrawal after so many years would be impossible without subjects to study. Perhaps the best analogy would be castrati or eunuchs.

Again, I don't have a full answer to your question but it is widely accepted that, medically, the effects of puberty blockers are reversible. AFAIK there is no dispute about this from any quarters (though I do stand to be corrected).
Ethically though... that's a whole other can of worms.

zsazsagaboredom · 01/10/2016 21:10

vesuvia no problem Smile

ageingrunner · 01/10/2016 21:13

Isn't there a lot of evidence that even though the effects of blockers are reversible in theory, in practice almost 100% of children who take them then go on to take opposite sex hormones?

ageingrunner · 01/10/2016 21:18

I keep thinking back now to how much of a tomboy I was as a kid. I'd more or less forgotten that I wanted to be a boy, all my heros were male, from Robin Hood to murdoch off the A Team.
Imagine if I was a child now and some well-meaning busybody got hold of me and was able to override my parents' judgment and start transing me?
It's just insane and I'm now a happily hetero woman with a child who wears dresses quite a lot but enjoys diy i.e. a normal person with a range of interests. I wouldn't like to be sterile and bearded tbh.

shinynewusername · 01/10/2016 21:56

- trans children have the brains of the opposite gender. Oversimplification of the issue, but that is the current accepted theory. I know a lot of feminists don't like it and will argue against it. Until medical science has a different theory this is the currently accepted one.

Accepted by whom? Absolutely no one who understands neuroscience or physiology accepts that. What does it even mean? How can have you the wrong brain for your body. Your brain is your brain. It is just utter nonsense.

ageingrunner · 01/10/2016 22:09

I might have been diagnosed as 'being in the wrong body' if I was a child today. It would have been total bullshit though

ATransMum · 01/10/2016 22:10

@WankingMonkey

Yes, higher than the rest of the LGB spectrum. LGB Spectrum people (including youth) have a higher suicide rate than non-LGB people.

Trans people have a higher suicide rate than LGB people.

Trans people who have support networks, supportive families and the timely medical intervention have significantly lower suicide rates. In fact pretty much in line with non-trans people. Starting cross-sex hormones before puberty (including delayed puberty) will mean significantly less medical intervention is required and the capacity to have a happy and successful life is dramatically improved.

Trans people who are forced into living in their birth gender by family have higher suicide rates. Trans people who are told to 'pray the trans away' have significantly higher suicide rates.

Internalized transphobia (i.e. being bombarded with anti trans messages to the point where you start to disbelieve yourself) increase suicide rates.

All the evidence is in this Huffington Post article or via the links from it, and ties in with my personal experience with trans friends and acquaintances:

www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/the-truth-about-transgend_b_8564834

ageingrunner · 01/10/2016 22:17

There are usually significant co-morbid mental health problems that go with trans, so I've read somewhere this week. Especially for ftm teenage girls, who are likely to have eating disorders and self harming behaviour. It's difficult to see which is the chicktand which is the egg, but if you actually believe that you're the opposite sex then you're obviously quite mentally fragile, imo anyway.
Trans in girls is also linked to a history of abuse so that is also likely to affect mental health. It's not as simple as transition to stop suicide, there are likely to be various factors that could cause these young people to attempt to kill themselves.

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