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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans in children's and young people's services

474 replies

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/10/2016 14:58

OK … I can’t hold this in any longer. I went searching for a safe space to talk about trans issues and I found you guys (as per a previous post). I’m really hoping that you won’t think I’m stirring the trans pot for the sake of it. I really do have concerns.

I teach people who will one day, amongst other roles, work with boys, girls, young women, young men, parents and others in a range of ‘social care’ roles. This includes child and youth services and protection. In both my teaching, and the broader sector of practice that I prepare people to work in, I am facing a wall of ignorant, unthinking, militant trans orthodoxy, or a general fear of challenging this, or downright don’t-give-a rat’s-ism. The kinds of things that I hear people (and these are people with power as teachers, workers and even policy-makers) say uncritically (and as if they were droning a script) are:

  • trans children have the brains of the opposite gender
  • children should not need court consent, counselling or parental permission to have puberty blockers or hormonal drugs
  • if a child wants to access PB’s or other hormonal drugs and the parents object, it should become a child-protection matter
  • children should be watched for gender variant behaviour
  • children should learn about trans from an early age
  • all school toilets should be gender-neutral
  • boys / men should be allowed into women’s / girls’ facilities if they say they are girls. Girls should not object.
  • single-sex residential care homes (for girls, often those who have been sexually abused) should accept males who say they are female (even though we know there are high levels of sexual abuse in care homes)
  • terms such a ‘women’ or ‘girls’ should be changes to ‘people who identify as …’


Beyond this, I have the following experiences:
  • teaching a small but significant number of males who identify as ‘queer’, ‘trans’ or ‘female’ who have made it clear that they are entering the area to ‘save’ trans children from not being able to transition
  • being told by management that the official position is ‘pro-trans’
  • being told by some students that I am transphobic if I mention ‘women’. One was a ‘trans’ male who dressed in leather and studs and wore shirts with violent imagery and slogans.
  • having colleagues tell me that they think the orthodoxy is rubbish, but being afraid to speak out (as am I)
  • being in a meeting of practitioners and told that we must use ‘persons who identify as …’ instead of ‘women’ or ‘men’
  • being in a meeting of practitioners and being shown a ‘trans-positive’ manual that advises that trans boys be allowed into girls’ spaces (camps, homes, detention facilities, etc.)
  • raising an actual instance of harassment of a young lesbian by a trans man and general instances of lesbians being denied lesbian-spaces to be told that ‘trans comes first because they are so oppressed’.


This does not happen all the time, and nor is it ‘me against the world’, but it is prevalent enough to concern me and make me feel marginalised and silenced.

The reason I am writing this, apart from to get it off my chest and hopefully find some people who don’t think I am nuts for questioning it, is that I don’t think this is spoken of much (i.e. institutional responses to trans issues). Plus, these people have power over the lives of individuals, and some have the ears of policy-makers. Some make policies for organisations. This isn’t stuff happening on social media – it’s real – and to me it is terrifying because it can lead to the abuse of children, whether they be ‘trans’ kids or girls.

We don’t know the long-term effects of a set of drugs (PB’s) that were developed as an emergency measure to allow the treatment of some childhood cancers. We don’t really know much about child-transitioners. We don’t know much about the long term effects of hormone therapies on children’s bodies. Yet, we have generally moved away from a treatment regime that saw medical and surgical interventions as the last means to the first. Counselling and other therapies have fallen out of favour – and indeed are seen as ‘oppressive’ by some. This has all happened so fast that we don’t really know much at all, beyond isolated and mostly non-longitudinal studies. We know that some variants of ‘the pill’ have had detrimental effects, as has HRT – why are people naïve enough to think that hormonal treatments on young children are going to be magically better?

The issue of boys in girls’ and women’s spaces has been spoken of here, but I worry for girls who have no (or inadequate) parents to care for them or look after them, such as those in justice centres or care homes. These are vulnerable children.

Honestly, I know that many of us are wondering when this trans rubbish will dissipate, but I can’t help thinking that it might take a class-action of young people with cancers or a girls or two to be raped / murdered by a male claiming to be ‘trans’ for this to happen.
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JedRambosteen · 06/10/2016 21:41

Thank you Humphrey - excellent news.

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CharlieSierra · 06/10/2016 21:45

Thanks Humphrey.

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venusinscorpio · 06/10/2016 22:27

That's great news Humphrey.

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venusinscorpio · 06/10/2016 22:28

And thanks Charlie for bringing it to our attention here!

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RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 06/10/2016 23:10

I had wine...but didnt cook

I am a shit multi tasker Sad

Peace and love eledon Grin

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RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 06/10/2016 23:11

Yay for humphreys news

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sakura · 07/10/2016 15:25

Plenty of trans women have raped and killed women! You only need to do a quick google or check out some feminist websites that a keeping a log of them

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WankingMonkey · 07/10/2016 16:17

If anyone wants to draft up a petition about this transing kids stuff (and how, basically it should be classed as abuse not progression) I would be more than willing to post it. I understand people are scared to do things like this as they become the targets of vicious TAs, but I have one running already about sex-segregated areas so I have already bit the bullet, so to speak

www.change.org/p/theresa-may-mp-keep-sex-segregated-areas-sex-segregated

Need 5 signatures on here to make it visible in a search and hopefully start gaining more support. I do not yet dare post it on my facebook as I know it will cause hell on between my friendship groups..with the LGBT signing and the others thinking it is transphobic. And I don't want to be responsible for a huge fallout between people I know :S

I understand nothing is likely to change. However I kind of feel I have to do something to attempt to help.

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Prawnofthepatriarchy · 07/10/2016 17:12

I've signed and posted to Facebook.

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WitchingHour666 · 07/10/2016 17:57
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FirstShinyRobe · 07/10/2016 20:36

I kinda love this thread for all sorts of reasons. Props to all of you fighting the good fight.

I still can't believe the lack of genuine discussion at a supposed leadership level about this. I remember seriously debating the ethics of the human embryology act in general studies at school in about 1990. The ethics were a major thing. Less than 15 years later, woman became a feeling (largely because same sex marriage was such a no no and po mo bullshit took hold among the chatterati) with little public engagement. Brexit was (is) huge. How can redefining sexes not be larger by several magnitudes?

Signed.

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Atenco · 07/10/2016 21:12

That petition is excellent, WitchingHour666. I think you should start a new thread with it. Though I don't think it is possible to sign a petition anonymously

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WankingMonkey · 07/10/2016 21:28

Yes, I really think witchings petition deserves a thread of its own. and hopefully those who normally scream 'terf' and run might actually read instead of assuming its transphobic as it makes so much sense and is laid out so eloquently.

You can sign the change petitions anonymously..I think anyway. I tend to sign them with just Chloe R..which is pretty anonymous. My brother just shared witchings on his facebook..we are braced for the onslaught or insults and abuse from his (very) liberal friends.

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WitchingHour666 · 07/10/2016 22:44

Thanks Atenco, and Monkey, though I really think we need to thank Stephanie, as I used her letter to create the petition. I've started a new thread. Maybe it could be posted elsewhere on mumsnet also? I'm not really sure where else it could be posted?

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WankingMonkey · 07/10/2016 22:55

Chat is higher traffic I think

AIBU is the obvious answer really but how to word it to fir there I have no idea xD

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singingsixpence82 · 07/10/2016 23:16

Signed - thanks for doing this!

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YetAnotherSpartacus · 08/10/2016 08:49

I'm going to sign - thank you for doing this!

I also have a question.

Can anyone provide me with any resources (ones that are reputable, preferably science sites) to combat the argument that although the majority of people have XX or XY chromosomes, that in fact there are many who have variants (but not so variable to be named intersex) and there are many people of both sexes with atrophied, smaller or in some way 'inert' sexual organs of the other sex?

This argument is often used by transmania types to 'prove' that there are 'many sexes', not just male and female.

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Datun · 08/10/2016 09:24

WitchingHour666

On both my Desktop and mobile app, the petition ends in the middle of a sentence.

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zsazsagaboredom · 08/10/2016 10:09

Datun is correct Witching
It ends mid sentence. Is an edit possible?
Signed yesterday. Just plucking up courage to share on Facebook - steeling myself for the inevitable knee-jerk reactions from nonsensical liberal twits... nice people I know who are just uninformed that's all

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CharlieSierra · 08/10/2016 11:15

I went on to sign and noticed it ends mid sentence. I wondered if I had missed a way to scroll down, but I see not. Can it be edited?

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WitchingHour666 · 08/10/2016 20:59

Yes last 7 words from this paragraph are missing (not sure why? Maybe ran out characters?): Transgender activists have also threatened academics, and their families, especially those who have spoken out about the "late onset" males motives for identifying as female. I can't edit it now, because if you change a petition once it has been signed, it invalidates it (I know this is true for hand signed petitions).

I can no longer find the thread I started for this petition, I think they may have pulled it???

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zsazsagaboredom · 09/10/2016 09:22

witching
It's still there, it's in petitions (may have been moved; don't recall where it was to begin with)

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YetAnotherSpartacus · 22/10/2016 10:39

I know this thread is old now, but for anyone watching it who has not also seen this thread;

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2761712-woman-loses-residency-of-son-she-was-raising-as-daughter?

have a look - the kinds of things I am concerned about re social care / services blindly following transorthodoxy are highlighted in the judgement at issue.

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Atenco · 22/10/2016 16:10

Thanks Spartacus, the judge's rebuke of the social workers involved might help the social workers on here to raise their concerns.

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