Trans in children's and young people's services

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

OK … I can’t hold this in any longer. I went searching for a safe space to talk about trans issues and I found you guys (as per a previous post). I’m really hoping that you won’t think I’m stirring the trans pot for the sake of it. I really do have concerns.

I teach people who will one day, amongst other roles, work with boys, girls, young women, young men, parents and others in a range of ‘social care’ roles. This includes child and youth services and protection. In both my teaching, and the broader sector of practice that I prepare people to work in, I am facing a wall of ignorant, unthinking, militant trans orthodoxy, or a general fear of challenging this, or downright don’t-give-a rat’s-ism. The kinds of things that I hear people (and these are people with power as teachers, workers and even policy-makers) say uncritically (and as if they were droning a script) are:

• trans children have the brains of the opposite gender
  
• children should not need court consent, counselling or parental permission to have puberty blockers or hormonal drugs
  
• if a child wants to access PB’s or other hormonal drugs and the parents object, it should become a child-protection matter
  
• children should be watched for gender variant behaviour
  
• children should learn about trans from an early age
  
• all school toilets should be gender-neutral
  
• boys / men should be allowed into women’s / girls’ facilities if they say they are girls. Girls should not object.
  
• single-sex residential care homes (for girls, often those who have been sexually abused) should accept males who say they are female (even though we know there are high levels of sexual abuse in care homes)
  
• terms such a ‘women’ or ‘girls’ should be changes to ‘people who identify as …’
  

Beyond this, I have the following experiences:

• teaching a small but significant number of males who identify as ‘queer’, ‘trans’ or ‘female’ who have made it clear that they are entering the area to ‘save’ trans children from not being able to transition
  
• being told by management that the official position is ‘pro-trans’
  
• being told by some students that I am transphobic if I mention ‘women’. One was a ‘trans’ male who dressed in leather and studs and wore shirts with violent imagery and slogans.
  
• having colleagues tell me that they think the orthodoxy is rubbish, but being afraid to speak out (as am I)
  
• being in a meeting of practitioners and told that we must use ‘persons who identify as …’ instead of ‘women’ or ‘men’
  
• being in a meeting of practitioners and being shown a ‘trans-positive’ manual that advises that trans boys be allowed into girls’ spaces (camps, homes, detention facilities, etc.)
  
• raising an actual instance of harassment of a young lesbian by a trans man and general instances of lesbians being denied lesbian-spaces to be told that ‘trans comes first because they are so oppressed’.
  

This does not happen all the time, and nor is it ‘me against the world’, but it is prevalent enough to concern me and make me feel marginalised and silenced.

The reason I am writing this, apart from to get it off my chest and hopefully find some people who don’t think I am nuts for questioning it, is that I don’t think this is spoken of much (i.e. institutional responses to trans issues). Plus, these people have power over the lives of individuals, and some have the ears of policy-makers. Some make policies for organisations. This isn’t stuff happening on social media – it’s real – and to me it is terrifying because it can lead to the abuse of children, whether they be ‘trans’ kids or girls.

We don’t know the long-term effects of a set of drugs (PB’s) that were developed as an emergency measure to allow the treatment of some childhood cancers. We don’t really know much about child-transitioners. We don’t know much about the long term effects of hormone therapies on children’s bodies. Yet, we have generally moved away from a treatment regime that saw medical and surgical interventions as the last means to the first. Counselling and other therapies have fallen out of favour – and indeed are seen as ‘oppressive’ by some. This has all happened so fast that we don’t really know much at all, beyond isolated and mostly non-longitudinal studies. We know that some variants of ‘the pill’ have had detrimental effects, as has HRT – why are people naïve enough to think that hormonal treatments on young children are going to be magically better?

The issue of boys in girls’ and women’s spaces has been spoken of here, but I worry for girls who have no (or inadequate) parents to care for them or look after them, such as those in justice centres or care homes. These are vulnerable children.

Honestly, I know that many of us are wondering when this trans rubbish will dissipate, but I can’t help thinking that it might take a class-action of young people with cancers or a girls or two to be raped / murdered by a male claiming to be ‘trans’ for this to happen.

[shinynewusername]

Trans people who have support networks, supportive families and the timely medical intervention have significantly lower suicide rates.

Where is your evidence that timely medical intervention reduces the suicide risk? This 30 year study found the opposite - that suicide risk increases after transition. This doesn't of course mean that it was transitioning that caused the increased risk, but I am not aware of any evidence that medical transition lowers the suicide risk.

[RiverTam]

ageing I read recently from an anonymous (unsurprisingly) mental health professional that other psychiatric disorders are comorbid with gender dysphoria to the tune of between 60 and 90% of cases. Which of course go untreated. So no wonder the suicide rate is high. If healthcare professionals were allowed to treat the problem at source (ie the mind) maybe the suicide rate would drop.

[ageingrunner]

Yet another disturbing statistic RiverTam. I can't help feeling that vulnerable children are being let down by mental health services. I can't work out why this is happening. Imagine suggesting to a child that they need their genitals cut off and a lifetime of hormones. It's just...wtf?

[RiverTam]

I struggle to see the difference between this and telling an anorexic child that yes, they are obese, here's a lifetimes supply of laxatives, do crack on. Oh, and we'll make sure the rest of the world buy into your delusion too.

Why is one fine and the other not? Both body dysmorphia.

[WankingMonkey]

I keep thinking back now to how much of a tomboy I was as a kid. I'd more or less forgotten that I wanted to be a boy, all my heros were male, from Robin Hood to murdoch off the A Team.

I went into this on one of the threads a while back. I was also a tomboy. I had nothing in common with girls at all (besides body parts). I rarely had female friends, always got on better with males, and still do to this day. I strongly suspect I would have been effectively 'transed'. It wouldn't help that I hated puberty either as this surely would have been a sign that I was the wrong sex? I cried myself to sleep many nights once I started developing boobs, I tried to cut them off myself at one stage (though that was more because of the attention the boys gave them than anything else...I did not want that attention at all). I was terrified when I started bleeding, despite my parents being supportive and I wanted it all to stop. I wanted so much to be a boy who wasn't going through all of this but instead was just getting taller and hairier. If someone had mentioned to me back then that there was a way to stop the changes in my body medically..I would have jumped on it in a heartbeat.

Trans people who are forced into living in their birth gender by family have higher suicide rates.

Forced into living in their birth gender? So parents who persist in putting little girls into dresses and only buying them dolls? If so, then I understand why this may increase the suicide risk, being forced to be interested in something you are not and having supportive parents. By supportive I mean, willing to let you be you...not forcing you into a box based on sex.

[Felascloak]

Ok so using the stats in the huffpo article....
40% of trans people attempt suicide. Risk is reduced by 80% if you have a supportive family.
So assuming all those 40% had no support, if they were all supported then 7.2% would attempt suicide (this is obviously a worst case scenario assumption, I think a lot of trans people do have support).
It takes 25 attempts for each successful suicide (lostallhope.com/suicide-statistics) so that translates into a suicide rate in trans people of 0.33% or 330 people per 100,000.
Background suicide in men (highest risk group) is 16.8 per 100,000 www.samaritans.org/about-us/our-research/facts-and-figures-about-suicide

So trans people are at much higher risk of suicide, even when supported. Suggesting there is more to the suicides than non-acceptance.

I'm not saying this to minimise suicide, far from it. Trans suicide rates are a traged. But the narrative that it happens because of non-acceptance and that we have to transition young people to prevent suicide is not as it seems.

[YouAreMyRain]

I have personal experience of CAMHS (as a parent) policy being that they do not diagnose schizophrenia or personality disorder etc until late teens/ early 20s as "the personality is still fluid and not fixed until then"

[femfortheday]

What are the features of gender diverse behaviour?

Unisex toilets during school would have been horrendous. Imagine trying to negotiate your first period, your first use of pads and tampons and dealing with the mess from unexpected menstruation, in a toilet also used by your male classmates.

[femfortheday]

Sorry, 'gender variant' behaviour.

[steppinstone]

I also work and train in this area. And I worry that if I say something wrong then I am going to lose my career. And I'm not prepared to.

It's scary. The system is so conscious of how we fucked up gay people through medical and psychological interventions, that it is paralysed in the face of the Trans narrative.

[steppinstone]

A lot of the Trans young people I see look more like developing BPD than anything else...

[wigglybeezer]

Unfortunately I have recent anecdotal evidence of a trans young person in my village who committed suicide despite having a supportive school, family and friends. I suspect there were other comorbid MH issues.

[Mamatallica]

The whole thing is terrifying, like other posters, I was a tomboy and wished I was a boy, I was a pretty messed up teen, self harming etc. but now I'm a grown woman, looking at my perfect baby boy, I'm so relieved that all this nonsense wasn't around when I was a kid. Not that I think my parents would have been that dumb but I'd have been a good candidate for trans-agenda brainwashing. I still prefer the company of men and often have very male views which means I struggle to identify with other women sometimes but that's ok, we just need more acceptance of who we are, not more changing ourselves.
I feel so sorry for the innocent young children getting sucked into this social and medical experiment, it reminds me of The Wasp Factory but the reality is worse.

[JacquettaWoodville]

"Why is one fine and the other not? Both body dysmorphia."

Yes, this confuses me too.

[Atenco]

Another tomboy who would have jumped at the chance of changing into a boy if it had been around when I was an unhappy young teenager. Imagine, I would not have had my gorgeous dd and now dgd and would probably be dead by now from the effects of so many hormones. Besides I love being a woman

[FreshwaterSelkie]

Stop it, ATM. Just stop it.

If you were genuinely concerned about trans suicide, the the LAST thing you would do is use Leelah Alcorn as an example. Because do you know what is proven, time and again to increase suicides? Turning a young person's death by suicide into a complete media circus, sharing their suicide note, turning them into a cause celebre, publishing endless photos of them and making them a martyr for a cause by suggesting that their death was due to that single cause.

It is documented and accepted that this kind of treatment leads directly copycat suicides and attempted suicides. So, A Trans Mum, if anything is causing the deaths of vulnerable people, it is the actions of people like YOU, using a young person's tragic death as grist to your mill.

Here's an extract from an excellent piece that explains why better than I could:

" It’s hard to think of any non-celebrity death this year that has received as much coverage as Alcorn’s. Searching for her name on Google news turns up 183 articles at the time of writing, with the earliest published two days ago (I’m not going to link to any of the reports). In that piece, almost every single one of the Samaritans’ guidelines is broken. The guidelines tell journalists to “exercise caution when referring to the methods and context of a suicide”: the report provides the means Alcorn used in the headline. The guidelines tell journalists to “avoid the suggestion that a single incident […] was the cause”: the report doesn’t discuss any possible underlying causes, but presents the reported hostility of Alcorn’s parents to her trans status as the sole contributing factor.

It goes on. “Be wary of over-emphasising community expressions of grief. Doing so may suggest that people are honouring the suicidal behaviour rather than mourning a death,” say the guidelines. The report details widespread memorials and candlelight vigils. The guidelines say: “Be careful not to promote the idea that suicide achieves results.” The standfirst of the article quotes Alcorn’s suicide note (something the Samaritans warns against directly) saying “My death needs to mean something.” The Samaritans urges publications not to give undue prominence to pictures of the deceased, particularly when the deceased is young: a photograph of Alcorn, youthful, smiling and sweet, dominates the report. “Consider the lifelong impact that a suicide can have on those bereaved by a suicide,” says the Samaritans; Alcorn’s parents are mentioned only as villains, based on a single source, and their grief is not acknowledged. Her wider family and friends are similarly absent. In fact, of the Samaritans’ seven guidelines, the only one that the story doesn’t breach is the suggestion to provide information on support services"

The rest of the link is here

I'm done with you now. So take that as a mic drop.

Everyone, I'm very sorry for getting sucked into the derailing again. Back to the op, I completely get where you are coming from. This is such a worry. Previous posters have signposted you to the material that I would have recommended as helpful, so I hope it is. I'm glad you've found your way here as a sounding board, please know that you are not alone.

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

Thank you all for your welcomes, support and encouragement. I have a few rambly responses to things that people have said.

First, to WW and Ageing Runner - thank you, thank you, thank you for the support sites! I have connected with the Youth professionals one already and will look up the others too. I had no idea this stuff was happening, but I am so pleased that it is. Perhaps the tide will turn ... I actually feel more relieved now, and will pass these on to others who are questioning.

Poldarks - yes I am in the same boat. Would it be possible, if you felt compromised in the case of a transitioning child, to raise qualms with management if they are sympathetic, not mentioning anything feminist, but simply pointing out that we know so little about the effects of PBs and long term use of synthetic hormones? I guess my honest fear is about potential litigation one day. This is mainly around childen who have had medical interventions that have led to illnesses or who decide they are not 'trans' after all. I can honestly imagine a big government or independent inquiry similar to the one on sexual abuse happening now, where harmed individuals will call out the adults who failed to protect them. If there is a conscience clause anywhere could you use it, citing the best interests of the child as a reason? I know this might be tricky, and I am increasingly of the opinion that it is damned if you don't, but potentially worse if you do. I do think workers need more education on this ... and managements need to be held to account for their politically 'right on' thinking if it is not in the best interests of the child.

I don’t know what I’d do about ‘space’ issues and boys in girls’ spaces. It’s tricky because girls want to be ‘right on’ too, even if they aren’t really. I’m guessing they will do what girls have always done and in voluntary situations simply stop attending where they are put in uncomfortable situations. It also bothers me that we trust children to be adaptive and trusting and praise them when they are – yet this is how abuse bloody happens.

FirstShinyRobe / Irene the Quaint – Yes I do ask questions and try to do what I can. In doing so, I always highlight the best interests of the child (the trans one) and the lack of evidence in support of drug therapies being harmless. I also remind people about potential legal ramifications. This also ties into something that Wanking Monkey has said here and elsewhere about ‘tomboyism’ and kids growing out of these behaviours as well as what AngryRunner has said about lack of evidence re medical treatments. Simply, a whole bunch of professionals are weighing into this with very little knowledge and training. Yet, they are cheerfully meddling in the lives of children and young people. That training which is provided is by organisations flying the pro-trans banner. There is no training (that I know of) that is neutral, might consider a variety of responses and which might ask the worker a range of legal and ethical questions that consider potential future scenarios. Workers have not been asked to stop and think what might happen if they are the one who supports little Toby to get the treatment to become Tania, assisting him/her in convincing parents, etc., and grown up Tania decides she wants her dick / fertility / life back and is angry enough to do something about it. Workers are not always called to account for poor decisions, but if something becomes media dynamite and there is an inquiry they could end up in a hard place indeed, as could organisations that employ them. Just look at the current child abuse inquiry …

I wasn’t in a position to assist the young lesbian… she (a student) had reported the story to me, and I was using it to try to influence someone from somewhere else entirely to change a particular institutional practice. I did check she was OK, which she was … just miffed that her access to public space as a young woman was impeded by men.

This is a good response to questions about what we do and do not know.

www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/when-transgender-kids-transition-medical-risks-are-both-known-and-unknown/

Ageing Runner and others – yes I totally agree about the comorbidity issue, particularly with older children and young people who suddenly identify as trans. Most who I have come in contact with have a range of other diagnoses, such as PTSD, BPD, depression, etc. It’s chicken and egg, but all too often people assume that trans is the chicken, in my view.

Femfortheday - I van remember that the toilets even in very young years were a safe haven for girls in a playground where boys were trying to look up our dresses and otherwise harass us. We’d go in packs and keep a look out for boys who used to try and peep in doors … I can’t imagine what it would be like to be a little girl where boys would be allowed in that space (especially shy ones, or ones without big packs of assertive friends). I can imagine girls wetting themselves for fear of going to the toilet knowing that a boy could watch her of be there when she opened the door …

I have a few other thoughts, but this is enough waffle for now.

[JedRambosteen]

Trans people who are forced into living in their birth gender by family have higher suicide rates. Trans people who are told to 'pray the trans away' have significantly higher suicide rates.

I can see how unsympathetic denial of the person's feelings would contribute to suicidal ideation or behaviour, but what are rates like for body dysmorphic and non-gender conforming teens who receive sympathetic but supportive talking therapy to explore their feelings about their bodies and gain insight, and possibly equanimity with those feelings? Or do we not have a 'control' group against which we could compare outcomes vs the puberty blocker/hormones/social transition route?

[Felascloak]

Great post selkie

[lionheart]

Excellent post, Selkie.

[WinchesterWoman]

Thank you so much Selkie. Spart, thanks for coming back and saying you feel more positive - that gives me heart as well! Does it help to know that you are not the only professional? I know in my profession I feel utterly alone and try to do what I can, but have already been overridden by a manager once. Unfortunately it's a very different field to that website. I think you're right though, so long as people are talking to each other and holding back when they can, when a child is in danger, then the resistance movement will grow.

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

WW - yes it does help, thank you. I thought I had an ally, but as soon as management made the 'pro-trans' announcement this person not only shut up, but did an about-face.

I can't help thinking that for those directly responsible for the care of young people and their families, the words 'risk' and 'litigation' might work. I do think I'd be inclined to suggest to management that this is such a new area and we know so little and that we need some professional development around potential risks and how we might manage these / how the organisation might address these ... highlighting that the sexual abuse allegations were made years later and people and organisations held to account years later....

[CoteDAzur]

"Forced into living in their birth gender? So parents who persist in putting little girls into dresses and only buying them dolls? If so, then I understand why this may increase the suicide risk"

I don't. Which child in the history of the world has killed himself because parents didn't let him wear dresses? Which little girl has thrown herself off a 5th floor window because parents insisted on buying her Barbie dolls?

Surely a child without MH issues would just leave the Barbies in their boxes in a drawer. That's what my DD did. And it's what I did as a child.

[Beebeeeight]

Ive Seen a study which reported that half of trans people (male and female) have been victims of childhood sexual abuse.

At a guess id say that is more likely to be the cause of suicidal intent than anything else.

[CoteDAzur]

Re Puberty blockers - They don't stop growth but they stop proper/timely functioning of hormonal maturation.

When DD entered puberty at an age considered early where we live, her paediatrician said blocking puberty was an option but it had very serious risks like infertility, so it was not recommended it unless the child in question is very short.

Except if said child doesn't like his/her toys & dresses, I suppose