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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans in children's and young people's services

474 replies

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/10/2016 14:58

OK … I can’t hold this in any longer. I went searching for a safe space to talk about trans issues and I found you guys (as per a previous post). I’m really hoping that you won’t think I’m stirring the trans pot for the sake of it. I really do have concerns.

I teach people who will one day, amongst other roles, work with boys, girls, young women, young men, parents and others in a range of ‘social care’ roles. This includes child and youth services and protection. In both my teaching, and the broader sector of practice that I prepare people to work in, I am facing a wall of ignorant, unthinking, militant trans orthodoxy, or a general fear of challenging this, or downright don’t-give-a rat’s-ism. The kinds of things that I hear people (and these are people with power as teachers, workers and even policy-makers) say uncritically (and as if they were droning a script) are:

  • trans children have the brains of the opposite gender
  • children should not need court consent, counselling or parental permission to have puberty blockers or hormonal drugs
  • if a child wants to access PB’s or other hormonal drugs and the parents object, it should become a child-protection matter
  • children should be watched for gender variant behaviour
  • children should learn about trans from an early age
  • all school toilets should be gender-neutral
  • boys / men should be allowed into women’s / girls’ facilities if they say they are girls. Girls should not object.
  • single-sex residential care homes (for girls, often those who have been sexually abused) should accept males who say they are female (even though we know there are high levels of sexual abuse in care homes)
  • terms such a ‘women’ or ‘girls’ should be changes to ‘people who identify as …’

Beyond this, I have the following experiences:

  • teaching a small but significant number of males who identify as ‘queer’, ‘trans’ or ‘female’ who have made it clear that they are entering the area to ‘save’ trans children from not being able to transition
  • being told by management that the official position is ‘pro-trans’
  • being told by some students that I am transphobic if I mention ‘women’. One was a ‘trans’ male who dressed in leather and studs and wore shirts with violent imagery and slogans.
  • having colleagues tell me that they think the orthodoxy is rubbish, but being afraid to speak out (as am I)
  • being in a meeting of practitioners and told that we must use ‘persons who identify as …’ instead of ‘women’ or ‘men’
  • being in a meeting of practitioners and being shown a ‘trans-positive’ manual that advises that trans boys be allowed into girls’ spaces (camps, homes, detention facilities, etc.)
  • raising an actual instance of harassment of a young lesbian by a trans man and general instances of lesbians being denied lesbian-spaces to be told that ‘trans comes first because they are so oppressed’.

This does not happen all the time, and nor is it ‘me against the world’, but it is prevalent enough to concern me and make me feel marginalised and silenced.

The reason I am writing this, apart from to get it off my chest and hopefully find some people who don’t think I am nuts for questioning it, is that I don’t think this is spoken of much (i.e. institutional responses to trans issues). Plus, these people have power over the lives of individuals, and some have the ears of policy-makers. Some make policies for organisations. This isn’t stuff happening on social media – it’s real – and to me it is terrifying because it can lead to the abuse of children, whether they be ‘trans’ kids or girls.

We don’t know the long-term effects of a set of drugs (PB’s) that were developed as an emergency measure to allow the treatment of some childhood cancers. We don’t really know much about child-transitioners. We don’t know much about the long term effects of hormone therapies on children’s bodies. Yet, we have generally moved away from a treatment regime that saw medical and surgical interventions as the last means to the first. Counselling and other therapies have fallen out of favour – and indeed are seen as ‘oppressive’ by some. This has all happened so fast that we don’t really know much at all, beyond isolated and mostly non-longitudinal studies. We know that some variants of ‘the pill’ have had detrimental effects, as has HRT – why are people naïve enough to think that hormonal treatments on young children are going to be magically better?

The issue of boys in girls’ and women’s spaces has been spoken of here, but I worry for girls who have no (or inadequate) parents to care for them or look after them, such as those in justice centres or care homes. These are vulnerable children.

Honestly, I know that many of us are wondering when this trans rubbish will dissipate, but I can’t help thinking that it might take a class-action of young people with cancers or a girls or two to be raped / murdered by a male claiming to be ‘trans’ for this to happen.

OP posts:
venusinscorpio · 06/10/2016 11:55

I don't mean men, trans women etc can't post on mumsnet. I mean the vast majority of people who do are women.

Elendon · 06/10/2016 11:55

OP. My suggestion regarding starting with a frame of reference is to ask if it is acceptable to use the phrases "boys will be boys" and "girls will be girls", because I think that these phrases are no longer seen as an excuse to behaviour. I also think you will get support in this.

And I totally understand your post.

FreshwaterSelkie · 06/10/2016 12:02

winchester Grin

I don't think ATM likes us very much. Ah well. I'm sure we'll limp along in our wrongness, and we'll have to make our own rape jokes from now on. We'll muddle through I suppose.

(PS ATM if you're still there. I used Kelly Winters as the example, because that is what WPATH does. Kelly is a very very visible presence peddling some truly atrocious and worrying science that is very pertinent to this thread as it involves professionals being pushed against their better judgement to steer children towards transition, and at much lower ages. Maybe YOU should try harder to identify the topic at hand?).

venusinscorpio · 06/10/2016 12:02

It doesn't surprise me in the least that Miranda Yardley was banned from attending a trans pride event.

FreshwaterSelkie · 06/10/2016 12:12

Oh, one more thought, I also completely agree with this: "To use the meme, 'Some people are trans. Get over it!' It really is that simple. Denying reality doesn't make the issue go away".

I "got over it" a long time ago. I completely accept that some people are trans. Doesn't bother me in the slightest, I think people should absolutely be who they are and do what they need to do to get through life, and more power to them. Totally supportive of that, and trans people need homes, jobs, health care, freedom, respect and every last other scrap of human dignity going. I don't think you'll find anyone here who disagrees.

However, those rights can only be freely exercised up to the point when they cause a conflict with other people's rights, just the same as in any other sphere of life.

Which is the point that you're so signally missing. We think the way we do not because we hate trans people and want them to disappear, but because every time a transwoman wins a race in a woman's category, every time we read a headline about the "first female rifleman" (and it's a transwoman because women can't yet do that) every time we're told that our desire not to be naked in public spaces with people with penises is phobic and wrong and horrible...the little bit of space and time and freedom that used to be ours gets smaller. And it hurts. You think about what you're gaining, and you never stop to think about what you're taking away.

venusinscorpio · 06/10/2016 12:27

Yes, I think ATM has confused "not wanting transpeople to exist" with "not wanting the trans lobby to shit all over women's rights". But that's hardly surprising, given how little ATM listened to us.

WinchesterWoman · 06/10/2016 12:30

YetAnother: You did an amazing personal thing posting this - who knows how many people have been and will be helped just because they read it?

My response to the bathroom/refugee centre/female space sharing transphobia accusation will from now on be, if it needs to be sharp and sweet, that I couldn't possibly be transphobic because I have no objection to transmen in there ( and when they bring out pictures of burly transmen I now have the Swedish study to reference wrt crime rates) for exceptions.

And when something in a bit more depth is needed, I have so many arguments now thank to all you amazing women while I've been lurking. And thanks, in a small way, to TransMum - I don't think there's a single argument lurking in the back pocket of transmania that he hasn't tried to deploy, and which has been confidently and roundly debunked every one of the multiple times it was repeated.

Elendon · 06/10/2016 12:41

Well this whole trans debate is about an equal right to hear the other side of the debate.

Take the BBC as an example. Recently there was a spot on Radio 4 Today programme regarding Northabout sailing through the Northwest Passage. Find it at www.polarocean.co.uk

In this segment the person interviewed was let off at Greenland and had returned to the UK. This basically was about the effects of global warming, man made, but being the BBC, it had to have another 'voice'. This voice, a climate changing sceptic, said that they were lucky to get through the passage as it iced up two days later. And this was wrong. Find out why at greatwhitecon.

One of the comments btl suggested it was like the BBC reporting on a new vaccine for cancer and the BBC responding to this momentous scientific breakthrough with well Andrew Wakefield has said that vaccines cause Autism, what do you think about that?

I've no problem regarding trans, and I'm extremely disappointed to hear that Miranda has been silenced. Her voice deserves to be heard. Loud and clear.

WinchesterWoman · 06/10/2016 12:44

Elendon is there any reason you brought those examples here?

Elendon · 06/10/2016 12:45

Miranda Yardley.

Hope you all get the gist of my post. Denialism is is never to be tolerated in the face of scientific study. Sex is different from gender. That's biology!

FloraFox · 06/10/2016 12:48

Last night I was in a female-only sex positive space (where I was invited by the organisers I hasten to add)

It wasn't a female only place because you were there, no matter how much you would like to deny reality. Your presence likely influenced the women in the room to police the woman who wanted to talk about her experience but seems to have been shouted down by the TAs. This is why women's only spaces are important. The presence of men changes the dynamic as women are socialised to avoid offending men which inhibits open discussion, as in your case.

Some women will not have attended this event and others will not go in the future because it is not women only space. You have done this. But hey, you got your "girly time".

ATransMum · 06/10/2016 12:51

*I "got over it" a long time ago. I completely accept that some people are trans. Doesn't bother me in the slightest, I think people should absolutely be who they are and do what they need to do to get through life, and more power to them. Totally supportive of that, and trans people need homes, jobs, health care, freedom, respect and every last other scrap of human dignity going. I don't think you'll find anyone here who disagrees.

However, those rights can only be freely exercised up to the point when they cause a conflict with other people's rights, just the same as in any other sphere of life.

Which is the point that you're so signally missing. We think the way we do not because we hate trans people and want them to disappear, but because every time a transwoman wins a race in a woman's category, every time we read a headline about the "first female rifleman" (and it's a transwoman because women can't yet do that) every time we're told that our desire not to be naked in public spaces with people with penises is phobic and wrong and horrible...the little bit of space and time and freedom that used to be ours gets smaller. And it hurts. You think about what you're gaining, and you never stop to think about what you're taking away.*

You see - common ground which is what I was looking for and want to work with. Thank you.

The race category aspect: Trans women should be allowed to do competitive sport (as should trans men, but they get testosterone which makes it a bit easier). You can't put them in the 'men' category because hormone therapy reduces muscle mass to an equivalent female level so they are at a significant disadvantage. But they have a more masculine skeleton (which doesn't change) which may give them a slight advantage (not as much as muscle mass).

And you have female athletes with naturally high testosterone that outclass other women anyway.

So you degender sport. Problem solved (although it will take years to do that, and it doesn't work that well for athletics). Amateur sport does this anyway to a degree, it's only the competitive level that has issues. And I know lots of trans people that play amateur sport without many issues.

The first female rifleman (irony not lost in quoting) I totally disagree with as well. She's early in the transition process anyway, and whilst I agree with the military ruling that front line is open to women it would have been much better for the first female rifleman to have gone through training as female (irrespective of birth gender). You should feel cheated by this. The story of her transitioning in the military is newsworthy. The fact she is the first female front-line person isn't and it a cop-out in many ways (she went through training as a man).

And I've already discussed changing spaces - I personally wouldn't feel comfortable getting changed in front of people with vagina's either! But shared changing space is less common these days anyway, and there are quite often other facilities that could be used. It is about finding balance.

I do empathise with and support a lot of the initiatives that you are pushing for. I want trans people to be accepted (which is your mentality), I don't want to rip rights away from non-trans women just to appease the trans agenda. I want to create an environment where we are welcome as our assumed gender (which you seem to support as well). But there are still some areas which need negotiating over.

But that needs to be balanced with 'othering' of trans people (you can't be in the male space or the female space, for instance). And making sure we have access to relevant support services. Trans female rape victims for instance - sure as hell don't want to go to a male rape clinic, but rad fems want them kept out of a female rape safe space as well - which means they may not get any support. That's not acceptable to me.

Random 4th wave articles

I tend to avoid anything from that site as it is massively biased. I'd rather read contemporary news sources and form my own opinions thanks :)

Elendon · 06/10/2016 12:52

I think the analogy of man made global warming AGW and the trans debate is exactly the same. Scientists say AGW is real and happening. But the complacency surrounding it is tragic. Same with transgender. A woman is not a woman if she has once been a man. There is no such thing as male and female brains. It's basic science.

SomeDyke · 06/10/2016 12:53

I think the 'go and debate with the nasty TERFs' is part of some trans initiation, frankly.

I was struck again by the banning of Miranda Yardley from TransPride. Given the number of Pride events I have attended over the years, where Pride was always supposed to be inclusive. Yet now we have a lesbian activist banned for gender critical opinions:
gendertrender.wordpress.com/2016/04/30/milwaukee-pride-parade-strips-veteran-lesbian-activist-miriam-ben-shalom-of-grand-marshall-honors/

We have lesbian and gay activists such as Julie Bindel and Peter Tatchell no-platformed for supposed thought-crimes:
www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/02/15/peter-tatchell-hits-back-at-transphobia-and-racism-claims/
by people who still in infants school when he was getting his head kicked-in by Mugagbe's thugs.

And Miranda Yardley banned from TransPride for not being the 'right-sort' of trans or thinking the wrong things............

You're not actually very proud at all if you have to start banning your own!

....and let's not forget the Dyke marches protested by lesbians because males identifying as lesbians are invited:

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2014/06/21/breaking-news-lesbians-stage-protest-of-heterosexual-male-keynote-speaker-at-london-dyke-march-2014-threatened-with-arrest/

Elendon · 06/10/2016 12:58

And now mum means a man who had children without an uterus, which is physically impossible.

Elendon · 06/10/2016 13:01

Can I ask you ATM, would it be homophobic to ask two gay males who are parents which one of you is the mum?

FloraFox · 06/10/2016 13:04

So no more women's sport? Hmm

WinchesterWoman · 06/10/2016 13:06

Is atm really suggesting we get rid of all women's sport because.. trans?

Are you?

WinchesterWoman · 06/10/2016 13:07

Wouldn't transactivists be sad about that because no more validation?

SomeDyke · 06/10/2016 13:09

"And making sure we have access to relevant support services. Trans female rape victims for instance - sure as hell don't want to go to a male rape clinic, but rad fems want them kept out of a female rape safe space as well - which means they may not get any support. That's not acceptable to me."

Take the case of a female survivor of rape who was criticised for daring to explain how and why female-only spaces were valuable to her.

Compare that with the case in Toronto was a transwoman who sued a rape crisis centre not because they wouldn't offer her any support as a rape victim, but because they wouldn't let her be a counsellor.

How much did that cost the Rape crisis centre in legal fees, money that should have been used to support survivors?

If you want specific support for transwomen survivors of rape and sexual assault, then campaign and set up facilities yourself. How do you think women set up rape crisis centres in the first place?

ageingrunner · 06/10/2016 13:09

If tw want to compete in sport then they should organise their own leagues, or not transition in the first place. Having born men competing against women is both unfair, and potentially dangerous for women.
If you are trans and enjoy playing competitive sport, then you should make a choice. It's not your right to be able to compete, sorry

Elendon · 06/10/2016 13:24

So, about those trans children. It simply is a measure by TAs to normalise a situation that quite frankly would be flagged up as a safeguarding concern.

WankingMonkey · 06/10/2016 13:36

To use the meme, 'Some people are trans. Get over it!' It really is that simple. Denying reality doesn't make the issue go away.

I don't think anyone has denied that trans people exist? You accuse others of strawman arguments yet this is the biggest one yet?

I have enjoyed debating with you, but it seems to have got to a point where the same things are repeated over and over and things brought into it that haven't even been said.

Transpeople should do whatever they want to to make themselves happy..just like everyone else. I have an issue ONLY when 'trans rights' and womens rights overlap (such as in the case of sex segregation) and when children are being used as test subjects for something that we have no real medical research on yet. I don't think it is right to fuck up a generation of children to further the trans-agenda. And anyone who thinks this is right, is a sick fuck. Sorry not sorry, I guess should be added there.

FloraFox · 06/10/2016 13:36

"But they have a more masculine skeleton (which doesn't change) which may give them a slight advantage (not as much as muscle mass)."

Trans in children's and young people's services
ATransMum · 06/10/2016 13:41

Ok, I'm confused.

There have been people campaigning on this thread to get rid of gender as a concept.

I say degender sport.

And then people say 'what about women's sport'.

Which one is it again? Show some consistency at least...

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