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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans in children's and young people's services

474 replies

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/10/2016 14:58

OK … I can’t hold this in any longer. I went searching for a safe space to talk about trans issues and I found you guys (as per a previous post). I’m really hoping that you won’t think I’m stirring the trans pot for the sake of it. I really do have concerns.

I teach people who will one day, amongst other roles, work with boys, girls, young women, young men, parents and others in a range of ‘social care’ roles. This includes child and youth services and protection. In both my teaching, and the broader sector of practice that I prepare people to work in, I am facing a wall of ignorant, unthinking, militant trans orthodoxy, or a general fear of challenging this, or downright don’t-give-a rat’s-ism. The kinds of things that I hear people (and these are people with power as teachers, workers and even policy-makers) say uncritically (and as if they were droning a script) are:

  • trans children have the brains of the opposite gender
  • children should not need court consent, counselling or parental permission to have puberty blockers or hormonal drugs
  • if a child wants to access PB’s or other hormonal drugs and the parents object, it should become a child-protection matter
  • children should be watched for gender variant behaviour
  • children should learn about trans from an early age
  • all school toilets should be gender-neutral
  • boys / men should be allowed into women’s / girls’ facilities if they say they are girls. Girls should not object.
  • single-sex residential care homes (for girls, often those who have been sexually abused) should accept males who say they are female (even though we know there are high levels of sexual abuse in care homes)
  • terms such a ‘women’ or ‘girls’ should be changes to ‘people who identify as …’

Beyond this, I have the following experiences:

  • teaching a small but significant number of males who identify as ‘queer’, ‘trans’ or ‘female’ who have made it clear that they are entering the area to ‘save’ trans children from not being able to transition
  • being told by management that the official position is ‘pro-trans’
  • being told by some students that I am transphobic if I mention ‘women’. One was a ‘trans’ male who dressed in leather and studs and wore shirts with violent imagery and slogans.
  • having colleagues tell me that they think the orthodoxy is rubbish, but being afraid to speak out (as am I)
  • being in a meeting of practitioners and told that we must use ‘persons who identify as …’ instead of ‘women’ or ‘men’
  • being in a meeting of practitioners and being shown a ‘trans-positive’ manual that advises that trans boys be allowed into girls’ spaces (camps, homes, detention facilities, etc.)
  • raising an actual instance of harassment of a young lesbian by a trans man and general instances of lesbians being denied lesbian-spaces to be told that ‘trans comes first because they are so oppressed’.

This does not happen all the time, and nor is it ‘me against the world’, but it is prevalent enough to concern me and make me feel marginalised and silenced.

The reason I am writing this, apart from to get it off my chest and hopefully find some people who don’t think I am nuts for questioning it, is that I don’t think this is spoken of much (i.e. institutional responses to trans issues). Plus, these people have power over the lives of individuals, and some have the ears of policy-makers. Some make policies for organisations. This isn’t stuff happening on social media – it’s real – and to me it is terrifying because it can lead to the abuse of children, whether they be ‘trans’ kids or girls.

We don’t know the long-term effects of a set of drugs (PB’s) that were developed as an emergency measure to allow the treatment of some childhood cancers. We don’t really know much about child-transitioners. We don’t know much about the long term effects of hormone therapies on children’s bodies. Yet, we have generally moved away from a treatment regime that saw medical and surgical interventions as the last means to the first. Counselling and other therapies have fallen out of favour – and indeed are seen as ‘oppressive’ by some. This has all happened so fast that we don’t really know much at all, beyond isolated and mostly non-longitudinal studies. We know that some variants of ‘the pill’ have had detrimental effects, as has HRT – why are people naïve enough to think that hormonal treatments on young children are going to be magically better?

The issue of boys in girls’ and women’s spaces has been spoken of here, but I worry for girls who have no (or inadequate) parents to care for them or look after them, such as those in justice centres or care homes. These are vulnerable children.

Honestly, I know that many of us are wondering when this trans rubbish will dissipate, but I can’t help thinking that it might take a class-action of young people with cancers or a girls or two to be raped / murdered by a male claiming to be ‘trans’ for this to happen.

OP posts:
ageingrunner · 06/10/2016 13:42

Sex! Sex not gender! You must be joking though, ATM?? No one is that thick, surely?!

ageingrunner · 06/10/2016 13:43

Sorry I'm just going to read the useful contributions that women are making and learn from them, and just ignore the derailment now. I apologise for engaging/encouraging Blush

Elendon · 06/10/2016 13:45

This is Jaqueline Sephora Andrews a trans woman who has recently died. This blog is worth reading. ATM.

jaquelineandrews.wordpress.com/

Felascloak · 06/10/2016 13:46

For fuck sake
Sport is segregated on the basis of SEX not GENDER
Women are at a significant physiological disadvantage to men in sport. So sure, let's degender it and keep sex segregation as it is now.
Trans women compete with men and trans men compete with women. Anyone taking cross sex hormones needs a medical exception certificate.
If the trans people choose to take drugs or have surgery that affects their performance and means they can't compete, that's up to them.

ATransMum · 06/10/2016 13:51

I have an issue ONLY when 'trans rights' and womens rights overlap (such as in the case of sex segregation) and when children are being used as test subjects for something that we have no real medical research on yet. I don't think it is right to fuck up a generation of children to further the trans-agenda. And anyone who thinks this is right, is a sick fuck

And this is why I've engaged with you as well. There is mutual respect and some interesting articles around gender.

I'm up for discussing the areas of overlap as well as I think there is balance and trans people do need to understand that whatever access we have to women's spaces are a privilege. (This is why I'm horrified to hear about trans women peeing standing up, for instance)

Unilateral access isn't a right, it's something that can develop over time as we understand each other better. And some lines do need to be drawn and respected.

Shoving women out of the way and steaming into their spaces is naturally going to cause issues. Trans rights aren't a trump card.

And our views on trans children aren't that dissimilar. I advocate the 'wait and see' protocol and only using puberty blockers in extreme cases. Not throwing everyone who picks up a doll or action man under the trans bus.

Elendon · 06/10/2016 13:55

To quote from Jaqueline

"People are important. When you value life, you can honor and respect opposing view points. Some might not like that I’m a transsexual, or feel that I too appropriate other realities. I can disagree with other opinions, but their lives matter regardless of how their comments make me feel. The world doesn’t revolve around my feelings. The lack of respect for people, especially women, is why it was necessary for me to leave the trans movement. I saw that it was a misogynistic movement that expected women to be obedient. Women who don’t obey are labelled Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist (TERF) and targeted with abuse."

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 06/10/2016 13:55

The advantages of men have over women in so many (nearly all?) sports are not removed by transition. The testosterone levels now permitted by the IOC for transwomen are many times higher than those of women, but even if they were lowered to mean female levels this would be pretty unimportant while male skeletal and other physiological advantages persist. A man first ran a timed 4 minute mile in the 1950s. A woman never has.

Transwomen should not be permitted to compete in women's events. If steps they have taken, hormones for example, handicap them against their male peers this is something they should just accept. Competing at national or international levels is no one's right and plenty of athletes drop out for personal reasons. This is no different.

Recent decisions favouring transwomen athletes have bowed to relentless lobbying but I see on other forums that this is already perceived as cheating by many traditional male sports fans. Like most people outside the trans bubble they know full well that sex changes are impossible. Sports enthusiasts put a lot of weight on sportsmanship and dislike competitors who game the system.

I think the current rule changes will have only a short life before the pressure's on to get them revised. Numerous governments will exploit the new rules to pad their teams with transwomen and I predict that it won't take many years of watching unmistakable men triumph on the women's podium before international bodies, including the IOC, scurry off to revise these badly thought out rule changes.

ATransMum · 06/10/2016 13:57

@Elendom

I just read that blog. It's a ranty blog by a rad fem destroying a trans woman she befriended and is full of vitriol and rage.

Did you have a point behind it?

ageingrunner · 06/10/2016 13:59

I find it almost incredible that the rule changes have been brought in in the first place. The trans lobby is powerful, whether it turns itself to changing the culture in children and young people's services, or the IOC. There are obviously some people with a lot of influence who really want these changes. It's sinister as fuck imo.

Felascloak · 06/10/2016 13:59

I think atm has a vested interest in stopping us discussing trans in children and young people's services

atm why don't you start a thread to discuss whatever trans related issues you want to and we can stay on topic here?

Elendon · 06/10/2016 14:01

This gives a more detailed discussion about Jaqueline's approach to life. It really is worth reading.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2016/10/04/jaqueline-sephora-andrews-not-to-be-forgotten/

ageingrunner · 06/10/2016 14:02

I agree felascloak

FloraFox · 06/10/2016 14:03

ATD how can you fail to understand the difference between sex and gender?

I don't see you looking for middle ground at all. How would it benefit women to not have women's sports?

Elendon · 06/10/2016 14:03

I think Jacqueline's life should be presented to young people who are considering trans as an option for adulthood.

venusinscorpio · 06/10/2016 14:05

I'm not sure ATM is posting here in good faith, frankly. No one could be that obtuse.

ATM - No one here, apart from you, thinks "gender" is a valid reason for making a distinction between women and men. Biological sex is what we're talking about. That is what women's sport involves and why it's not fair in most cases for trans women to compete against women.

Elendon · 06/10/2016 14:08

ATM There is mutual respect and some interesting articles around gender.

You don't seem to have much mutual respect around these parts (not wishing at all to descend into smutty innuendo).

WinchesterWoman · 06/10/2016 14:09

We, you and us, don't have privileged access to women's spaces. We women have access to women's spaces and the reason is not privilege - it's protection. IF you, ATM, are allowed into women's spaces, THEN it would be a privilege.

Felascloak · 06/10/2016 14:09

Yes elendon. I think the author of third way trans is a good example too. And purple sage fem.
Psychologists know brain maturation doesn't stop until mid twenties and yet we have this movement to permanently alter the bodies and fertility of children. I just can't see how on earth it's ethical.
I hadn't thought about children in the care system but that is extremely worrying given how many of those children are already vulnerable.
I wish I knew what I could do.

titchy · 06/10/2016 14:10

*There have been people campaigning on this thread to get rid of gender as a concept.

I say degender sport.

And then people say 'what about women's sport'.*

Oh FFS - you're the one who is confused. Yes get rid of gender as a concept. But KEEP sport differentiated by sex. Sex not gender. The two are not the same, despite your constant intermixing of the words.

WinchesterWoman · 06/10/2016 14:13

You are horrified by men standing up to pee but not horrified by kids being given puberty blockers. Where is your moral compass ATM.

WinchesterWoman · 06/10/2016 14:14

I'm with Venus: ATM is on the wind up.

Elendon · 06/10/2016 14:18

ATM Ok, I'm confused.

I think you are confused. And if you feel confused, just think for a second on how young people and children might feel confused.

singingsixpence82 · 06/10/2016 14:22

ATM - patriarchy is a system in which everything is set up so that the almost 50% of the population born with what should be the arbitrary characteristic of having a penis/testicles/XY chromosome monopolise opportunities and are awarded large and unfair advantages over the almost 50% of the population born with what should be the arbitrary characteristic of having a vagina/uterus/XX chromosome.

The trans agenda reinforces patriarchy because it results in the already privileged 50% of the population gaining even more advantages at the expense of the 50% who are already disadvantaged.

Removing the sex distinction from sport is one of the best examples of how the trans agenda reinforces patriarchy because it results in the 50% of the population born with penises taking opportunities from the 50% born with vaginas in an area that is segregated because people with penises are as a class larger and stronger, something which they still are after transition. This is due to our species being non-monogamous (where one sex is bigger and stronger than the other it is because of non-monogamy).

The Iranian football teams are an example of this given Iran recognises people who've undergone "sex change" surgery or who are waiting to undergo it as actually being of the sex which they are not. On the men's team, all team members were born with a penis. On the women's team most members (it was 8 in 2015) were also born with a penis. This means that patriarchy has been reinforced because the people with penises are monopolising the opportunities and the people born with vaginas do not have a fair chance of being able to compete. If you eliminate the need for surgery or planned surgery you will likely see a situation in which all people on the men's team have penises and all people on the women's team have penises too and people with vaginas have been eliminated from sport. Do you honestly not see a problem with this ATM?

*I am aware that Iran is an unusual case as it forces gay men to undergo "sex change" surgery meaning many of the trans population aren't actually trans. It is still a valid example of what happens in sport however when you do not prevent people of the larger stronger class from competing in the category that was creating for the smaller, weaker class.

WinchesterWoman · 06/10/2016 14:22

Still it's more bumping. And it's like having a flag waver: a transactivist with a big sign saying I'm unreasonable! I don't understand! My arguments are full of holes! None of this makes any sense! All we care about are ourselves! And keeps on saying it over and over again.

WankingMonkey · 06/10/2016 14:23

There have been people campaigning on this thread to get rid of gender as a concept.

I say degender sport.

Sport is not separated on gender though...its separated on biological sex, and the advantages/disadvantages biological sex entails..

Same as sex segregated areas. Nothing to do with gender, all about sex.

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