Trans in children's and young people's services

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

OK … I can’t hold this in any longer. I went searching for a safe space to talk about trans issues and I found you guys (as per a previous post). I’m really hoping that you won’t think I’m stirring the trans pot for the sake of it. I really do have concerns.

I teach people who will one day, amongst other roles, work with boys, girls, young women, young men, parents and others in a range of ‘social care’ roles. This includes child and youth services and protection. In both my teaching, and the broader sector of practice that I prepare people to work in, I am facing a wall of ignorant, unthinking, militant trans orthodoxy, or a general fear of challenging this, or downright don’t-give-a rat’s-ism. The kinds of things that I hear people (and these are people with power as teachers, workers and even policy-makers) say uncritically (and as if they were droning a script) are:

• trans children have the brains of the opposite gender
• children should not need court consent, counselling or parental permission to have puberty blockers or hormonal drugs
• if a child wants to access PB’s or other hormonal drugs and the parents object, it should become a child-protection matter
• children should be watched for gender variant behaviour
• children should learn about trans from an early age
• all school toilets should be gender-neutral
• boys / men should be allowed into women’s / girls’ facilities if they say they are girls. Girls should not object.
• single-sex residential care homes (for girls, often those who have been sexually abused) should accept males who say they are female (even though we know there are high levels of sexual abuse in care homes)
• terms such a ‘women’ or ‘girls’ should be changes to ‘people who identify as …’

Beyond this, I have the following experiences:

• teaching a small but significant number of males who identify as ‘queer’, ‘trans’ or ‘female’ who have made it clear that they are entering the area to ‘save’ trans children from not being able to transition
• being told by management that the official position is ‘pro-trans’
• being told by some students that I am transphobic if I mention ‘women’. One was a ‘trans’ male who dressed in leather and studs and wore shirts with violent imagery and slogans.
• having colleagues tell me that they think the orthodoxy is rubbish, but being afraid to speak out (as am I)
• being in a meeting of practitioners and told that we must use ‘persons who identify as …’ instead of ‘women’ or ‘men’
• being in a meeting of practitioners and being shown a ‘trans-positive’ manual that advises that trans boys be allowed into girls’ spaces (camps, homes, detention facilities, etc.)
• raising an actual instance of harassment of a young lesbian by a trans man and general instances of lesbians being denied lesbian-spaces to be told that ‘trans comes first because they are so oppressed’.

This does not happen all the time, and nor is it ‘me against the world’, but it is prevalent enough to concern me and make me feel marginalised and silenced.

The reason I am writing this, apart from to get it off my chest and hopefully find some people who don’t think I am nuts for questioning it, is that I don’t think this is spoken of much (i.e. institutional responses to trans issues). Plus, these people have power over the lives of individuals, and some have the ears of policy-makers. Some make policies for organisations. This isn’t stuff happening on social media – it’s real – and to me it is terrifying because it can lead to the abuse of children, whether they be ‘trans’ kids or girls.

We don’t know the long-term effects of a set of drugs (PB’s) that were developed as an emergency measure to allow the treatment of some childhood cancers. We don’t really know much about child-transitioners. We don’t know much about the long term effects of hormone therapies on children’s bodies. Yet, we have generally moved away from a treatment regime that saw medical and surgical interventions as the last means to the first. Counselling and other therapies have fallen out of favour – and indeed are seen as ‘oppressive’ by some. This has all happened so fast that we don’t really know much at all, beyond isolated and mostly non-longitudinal studies. We know that some variants of ‘the pill’ have had detrimental effects, as has HRT – why are people naïve enough to think that hormonal treatments on young children are going to be magically better?

The issue of boys in girls’ and women’s spaces has been spoken of here, but I worry for girls who have no (or inadequate) parents to care for them or look after them, such as those in justice centres or care homes. These are vulnerable children.

Honestly, I know that many of us are wondering when this trans rubbish will dissipate, but I can’t help thinking that it might take a class-action of young people with cancers or a girls or two to be raped / murdered by a male claiming to be ‘trans’ for this to happen.

Good good, couldn't see any reason for it to go!

Going back to the OP:

How can we support the OP and others like them?Being put in a situation where they feel that their professional experience is at best ignored and at worst conforming to the transcult in order to have a livelihood.

I think we just have to stand our ground, speak out and keep speaking out, regardless of consequences to ourselves. Threads like this help to muster courage, certainly, but we need to take it a step further and be vocal in the real world too

Its a question of free speech, civil liberties and safeguarding

starting with the very real possibility of getting a ban from Mumsnet for speaking up

I agree, longlost I have started conversations with colleagues & friends re safe spaces for women, erosion of womens' rights et al and they have been horrified by what is happening. Keep talking.

I've seen your posts before longlost. Courageous and effective.

I've been lurking and reading. This is an immensely valuable thread, despite the constant mansplaining of ATM. This is a propaganda war, and ATM clearly feels it's important to pepper feminist debate with justifications of trans ideology for all the readers out there.

Constant comments like this are just mind bogglingly confusing: We all fully accept that our bodies started out as the wrong gender

I think that the classic male steamroll over the salient points made by your opponent is what's behind comments like this. Feminists are shouting 'but we don't believe in gender!' and then ATM says 'yes, I agree with you because [completely misses the point and states the opposite]'.

It is immensely frustrating for those engaging with ATM but it is very, very valuable because it is giving tools to gender critical men and women in what to say to this arrant nonsense. So thank you to all of you.

Finally, OP, this sounds terrible. I've been in a (remotely) comparable situation with regards to the curriculum. Society believes one thing, but the curriculum that we are forced to teach actually does the opposite (and promotes racism etc - I'm not in the UK). Privately networking would be the way to go. I'm in a radical network now of completely like minded critical educators, but it was incredibly isolating being by myself amongst supposedly unionist 'right on' lefty teachers.

Oh, and in addition, and I might get flamed/deleted for this - but won't someone think of the children? The children of ATM, that is. Why does your need to transition at this point in your children's lives trump their need for emotional security. Having to call their dad another mum drags them through avoidable turmoil at a tender age in my opinion. I do see it as quite selfish. I'm quiet and not myself at work too. But I can't trans my way out of it, because I don't have male privilege to start with.

It's like the Emperor's New Clothes, isn't it?

Sorry that last point wasn't expressed very well. I wasn't intending to diminish the need to transition. However our work is just that - work - and we can't control how others perceive us. I also have been criticised for things that relate to gender stereotypes. By men. Who are my bosses. But I can't do anything about it, because I'm trapped in this gender prison.

To be fair, I think ATM said her kids still call her Dad and she is ok with this (for the time being at least). And while I have read that having a parent come out as trans is often incredibly difficult for children of any age, there must be substantial benefit in having a formerly unhappy, struggling parent overcome some of these difficulties. While I don't agree with ATM's views on a lot of things I don't think the transition was something she undertook lightly. It sounds like she tried many other avenues first and experienced a good deal of distress in her pre-transition life.

I don't think the transition was something she undertook lightly. It sounds like she tried many other avenues first and experienced a good deal of distress in her pre-transition life.

Thank you.

Yes, exactly this. It's not something I undertook lightly, and equally something I don't feel a child should be put through lightly. Transition should be the last option for trans people - they should try everything else first (and to be fair, most of them do. But that is somewhat invisible.) I certainly did.

Transition is a selfish act. But also an act of self-love and self-care. Too often people try and focus on everyone else when frankly self-care is way more important. Learn to love yourself first, then you are better equipped to love and care for others.

We can bat around 'trans women aren't women / trans women are women' all day long and not make any progress. And we can link scientific justification, appropriate every thing else under the sun to back up our causes and still not agree. But with opposing viewpoints such as this it only ends up getting personal. I've tried avoiding that, explain my perspective from different view points, offered analogies and backed it up with some justification. Some of you listened and engaged, a lot of you just shoved your fingers in your ears and accused me of not listening (I've done a lot of extra reading over the past week), or tried to win cheap points by extracting straw men or misquoting me. I've probably made a few mistakes as well, I'm not exactly doing this as a full time job!

Sex and gender are different. Because human's aren't sheep. We have personalities, intellect and the ability to make rational decisions. If you want to apply laws that are based on other species then you devalue that individuality and personality that makes us human. We are all different, a combination of genetics, hormones, personality and experience.

To use the meme, 'Some people are trans. Get over it!' It really is that simple. Denying reality doesn't make the issue go away.

A small group of people don't 'believe' the trans agenda. Hundreds of thousands of trans people, established medical practice and the majority of the left wing do. One of us is wrong.

Cis people do not have a frame of reference for being transgender. So they try and rationalize it in other terms (body dyspmorphia, gender politics or simply fear of the unknown). Some people may have had trans feelings in the past (there are more than a few on the threads I've chatted with). It doesn't mean you need to transition - not everyone does. Last resort, remember.

Actually listening and engaging with a trans person is the best way to understand us - but that requires listening and not shoving your fingers in your ears and repeating 'woman: adult human female' or 'egg-bearing' over and over.

Last night I was in a female-only sex positive space (where I was invited by the organisers I hasten to add). Shockingly, the world did not end. Also no-one got sexually assaulted. (Yup, cheap jibe, #notsorry).

One of the women there discussed her partner transitioning and explained that she found it very hard to maintain a sexual relationship as she didn't identify as bisexual. Equally when another women referred to the first woman's partner as 'he' most of the room corrected the misgendering.

I deliberately said nothing. In some ways these discussions are affecting my viewpoint (internalized transphobia anyone?), in some ways I was still a bit jet-lagged...

However that reassured me of two things. Firstly the woman going through this with her partner is perceiving her partner as female (otherwise the bisexual line wouldn't have come into play). Secondly everyone else corrected the misgendering, not me. So that female-only space is far more trans positive than this site. And there were a mix of age groups, and plenty of people engaged with me in conversation. I was clearly just accepted as 'one of the girls'.

Not as a 'man'. Or 'male'.

I then spent the rest of the night hanging out with other girlfriends for a girly night out. Kind of what I needed after the past week.

I think that's the kind of community I prefer to hang out in.

So if you want to continue your battle against the trans agenda, good luck. You had another chance to engage with the trans community here - there was an olive branch and opportunity to discuss things. Some of you did that and it was interesting to discuss - and there is quite a lot of common ground.

The rest of you are just as guilty as the trans activists that scream 'TERF' and repeat 'trans women are women' ad nausea. I wasn't listening, because the message didn't change.

Final thoughts

We aren't the 'anti-vaxxers' - those were the ones fighting against established medical practice and scientific evidence based on the recommendations of one rogue doctor, remember? Draw any parallels?

1 person out of 600 odd people in WPATH is an engineer? That's your argument? Try harder.

Miranda Yardley? You do know that she was pretty much banned from attending a Trans Pride event because of her 'interesting' approach to the trans agenda, right? She doesn't represent me, nor does she represent most trans people.

It's not all about you. I can't even be bothered to pick through your post to highlight all the ways you've failed to listen or understand what we are saying.
You had an opportunity to demonstrate how trans activists could be sensitive to the view points of women but instead you've patronised us, misquoted us and deliberately misunderstood us (or genuinely misunderstood but that suggests a lack of intellect and you come across as bright).
So no loss you are leaving. Bye (ps there's a whole board called flouncers corner. It might suit you).

A small group of people don't 'believe' the trans agenda. Hundreds of thousands of trans people, established medical practice and the majority of the left wing do. One of us is wrong.

This is wrong on so many levels.

If the trans agenda means, that sexed brains exist and that a transwoman is a man, it is not 'a small group of people'. Transactivists are very vocal and they bully and seek to silence people who will state the simple truth, that a man is a man and a woman is a woman. Do you judge truth by who screams the loudest ? It is not established science, And what the left-wing thinks is neither here nor there.

Besides all that - even if there were only one voice speaking out - truth is not built on democracy or consensus. Something is true, even if no voices speak out.

I am not a dispersion. And once again, it is you who are not listening. Many postors have been extremely generous in engaging with you, only for you to reiterate the same tired old memes.

Your not sorry cheap jibe is ridiculous. I don't know any women at all who joke about sexual assault. Maybe it's more common among transwomen.

I am not a cisperson.

When you say female only space I have no idea whether you mean actual female only space, plus you, or space for people who identify as women.
And you still can't see why we prefer to use words accurately that describe an important aspect of our reality.

"Finally, OP, this sounds terrible. I've been in a (remotely) comparable situation with regards to the curriculum. Society believes one thing, but the curriculum that we are forced to teach actually does the opposite (and promotes racism etc - I'm not in the UK). Privately networking would be the way to go. I'm in a radical network now of completely like minded critical educators, but it was incredibly isolating being by myself amongst supposedly unionist 'right on' lefty teachers."

Thanks, Barcoo. I don't know of any local networks where I am, but I am hoping to make some connections in the context of the links so kindly provided in the earlier pages of this thread. I can't describe the relief I felt when I saw the transcritical youth professionals page. I am so glad I posted. Thank you all.

"How can we support the OP and others like them?Being put in a situation where they feel that their professional experience is at best ignored and at worst conforming to the transcult in order to have a livelihood."

Thank you for the thought Kua. I do feel supported here. Beyond this, I think the best method of support is social action - writing letters, putting in submissions to inquiries and the like is very, very important. My own view is that internet wars with the converted are pretty much futile (although I did learn from Barcoo's very good point that one learns skills this way). More important is a concerted civil society presence. Here, I think it important that people support the transcritical parent group that Stephanie posted a link to. Strength in numbers are all that ...

Hi Yet Another: Internet wars may feel rather random but there are people reading this who will be helped to form their own arguments against the agenda.

"I think we just have to stand our ground, speak out and keep speaking out, regardless of consequences to ourselves. Threads like this help to muster courage, certainly, but we need to take it a step further and be vocal in the real world too"

I should have popped this in my previous post - but yes, I quite agree. It can be done anonymously or in concert with a group and under their auspices (such as the transcritical parents).

And Miranda Yardley being banned? That pretty much speaks to the silencing and bullying mentioned so many times. Interesting that you hail it as proof of something.

Learn to love yourself first, then you are better equipped to love and care for others.

You can't appropriate Whitney Houston as well. That's just a step too far.

LOL at "established medical practice" and "scientific evidence" that trans women are not men. Think you mean "sustained campaign of political lobbying".

Winchester Woman - yes, very good point. My students do remind me that the internet is part of civil society - I should learn from them and you. I just feel old and tired and lacking in patience. Being a child of the second wave (I came to feminism towards the end, I suppose) I'm just very disappointed at what I now see as very real regressions and losses for women. I worry for girls of the future.

The greatest flounce of all. Having said that, it's a shame you're leaving, ATM. It was great that every single woolly "point" you made was utterly refuted by the sharp, cogent arguments of the rational people on this thread, without any censorship, as would happen everywhere if people were allowed to say what they really thought about this. It was good to read. But yes, I'm sure a liberal feminist "sex positive" echo chamber will be much more comfortable for you than discussing the issues on a mainstream women's website.