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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans in children's and young people's services

474 replies

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/10/2016 14:58

OK … I can’t hold this in any longer. I went searching for a safe space to talk about trans issues and I found you guys (as per a previous post). I’m really hoping that you won’t think I’m stirring the trans pot for the sake of it. I really do have concerns.

I teach people who will one day, amongst other roles, work with boys, girls, young women, young men, parents and others in a range of ‘social care’ roles. This includes child and youth services and protection. In both my teaching, and the broader sector of practice that I prepare people to work in, I am facing a wall of ignorant, unthinking, militant trans orthodoxy, or a general fear of challenging this, or downright don’t-give-a rat’s-ism. The kinds of things that I hear people (and these are people with power as teachers, workers and even policy-makers) say uncritically (and as if they were droning a script) are:

  • trans children have the brains of the opposite gender
  • children should not need court consent, counselling or parental permission to have puberty blockers or hormonal drugs
  • if a child wants to access PB’s or other hormonal drugs and the parents object, it should become a child-protection matter
  • children should be watched for gender variant behaviour
  • children should learn about trans from an early age
  • all school toilets should be gender-neutral
  • boys / men should be allowed into women’s / girls’ facilities if they say they are girls. Girls should not object.
  • single-sex residential care homes (for girls, often those who have been sexually abused) should accept males who say they are female (even though we know there are high levels of sexual abuse in care homes)
  • terms such a ‘women’ or ‘girls’ should be changes to ‘people who identify as …’

Beyond this, I have the following experiences:

  • teaching a small but significant number of males who identify as ‘queer’, ‘trans’ or ‘female’ who have made it clear that they are entering the area to ‘save’ trans children from not being able to transition
  • being told by management that the official position is ‘pro-trans’
  • being told by some students that I am transphobic if I mention ‘women’. One was a ‘trans’ male who dressed in leather and studs and wore shirts with violent imagery and slogans.
  • having colleagues tell me that they think the orthodoxy is rubbish, but being afraid to speak out (as am I)
  • being in a meeting of practitioners and told that we must use ‘persons who identify as …’ instead of ‘women’ or ‘men’
  • being in a meeting of practitioners and being shown a ‘trans-positive’ manual that advises that trans boys be allowed into girls’ spaces (camps, homes, detention facilities, etc.)
  • raising an actual instance of harassment of a young lesbian by a trans man and general instances of lesbians being denied lesbian-spaces to be told that ‘trans comes first because they are so oppressed’.

This does not happen all the time, and nor is it ‘me against the world’, but it is prevalent enough to concern me and make me feel marginalised and silenced.

The reason I am writing this, apart from to get it off my chest and hopefully find some people who don’t think I am nuts for questioning it, is that I don’t think this is spoken of much (i.e. institutional responses to trans issues). Plus, these people have power over the lives of individuals, and some have the ears of policy-makers. Some make policies for organisations. This isn’t stuff happening on social media – it’s real – and to me it is terrifying because it can lead to the abuse of children, whether they be ‘trans’ kids or girls.

We don’t know the long-term effects of a set of drugs (PB’s) that were developed as an emergency measure to allow the treatment of some childhood cancers. We don’t really know much about child-transitioners. We don’t know much about the long term effects of hormone therapies on children’s bodies. Yet, we have generally moved away from a treatment regime that saw medical and surgical interventions as the last means to the first. Counselling and other therapies have fallen out of favour – and indeed are seen as ‘oppressive’ by some. This has all happened so fast that we don’t really know much at all, beyond isolated and mostly non-longitudinal studies. We know that some variants of ‘the pill’ have had detrimental effects, as has HRT – why are people naïve enough to think that hormonal treatments on young children are going to be magically better?

The issue of boys in girls’ and women’s spaces has been spoken of here, but I worry for girls who have no (or inadequate) parents to care for them or look after them, such as those in justice centres or care homes. These are vulnerable children.

Honestly, I know that many of us are wondering when this trans rubbish will dissipate, but I can’t help thinking that it might take a class-action of young people with cancers or a girls or two to be raped / murdered by a male claiming to be ‘trans’ for this to happen.

OP posts:
WankingMonkey · 06/10/2016 14:30

I'm up for discussing the areas of overlap as well as I think there is balance and trans people do need to understand that whatever access we have to women's spaces are a privilege. (This is why I'm horrified to hear about trans women peeing standing up, for instance)

See this is where the issue lies. The privilege has been there for as long as I can remember. Not until the shouty TAs started going on about how women should accept everyone into their spaces was there a problem.

I can't think of anyone I know who would have an issue sharing spaces with the transwomen I know. As they all know each other and know that these transwomen are 'genuine'. But this is on a personal level. Once the doors open up for everyone who 'identifies'...there becomes a time when people need to take polar opposite sides. Honestly, the transwomen I know are concerned about what the trans-agenda is going to do to their lives. Rather than looking forward to the 'equality' if the trans-juggernaut wins this race...

WankingMonkey · 06/10/2016 14:37

Also the sports issue I see as this, and correct me if I am wrong.

Transwomen are at a disadvantage to men because of the hormones and such they take. Fair enough. However, why does this now become 'fair' to put transwomen into the same category as biological females when that transwoman would have an advantage over them? The very same advantage that the other way around made it unfair for them to compete with the biological males...

Yes, females exist who have hormonal imbalances and such and have higher testosterone than other women. But again, this is not the 'norm' and should be dealt with on a case by case basis. This seems to me again to be using a kind of 'but intersex' argument :/

IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat · 06/10/2016 15:02

SomeDyke

Thanks for posting those links. The one about the male lesbians on the lesbian march is beyond fucking belief!

I am reposting it again in case anyone missed it as IT IS FUCKING UNBELIEVABLE

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2014/06/21/breaking-news-lesbians-stage-protest-of-heterosexual-male-keynote-speaker-at-london-dyke-march-2014-threatened-with-arrest/

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 06/10/2016 15:04

Do you really not know the difference between sex and gender, ATM? Again and again you swap them mid-concept. I'm not sure whether you just don't comprehend that they're different or whether it's a product of woolly thinking, though the more you post the more I suspect it's the latter.

The idea of a gender identity that exists without any material basis: a claim to be a woman and to know what that might feel like despite having a male body and a man's life experience from childhood through marriage and fatherhood, seems frankly preposterous to me. It would never occur to me to appropriate male experience in such a sweeping way without anything in terms of physiology or experience to authenticate it. One of the issues I have with trans ideology is that it doesn't seem to me possible for such an identity to be authentic.

What I think dysphoric trans people may be doing is identifying what they aren't . As in "I'm definitely not a man. I reject that. It's not me. But I'm obviously a person, so if I'm not a man I must be a woman." Woman = not man. Of course this isn't true, and women are rightly affronted by it, but it makes more sense than claiming an identity you have no means of recognizing.

On top of this there are sexual preoccupations. Masturbating in front of a mirror while wearing things stolen from a female relative appears to be a very common foundational experience among transwomen. The whole AGP thing is often excused on the basis that "women do it too." Women's grooming and interest in clothes, hair, etc is interpreted as signifying that women become aroused by being themselves and AGPs employ this claim to normalize their fetishistic behaviour. Posters on asktransgender ask for feedback and are reassured that becoming aroused by seeing themself as a woman is diagnostic. You get excited because you're trans, they're told. Women do it all the time. It's feminine. But of course it's not. Fetishes of any kind are very rare among women. When women adopted male dress in centuries past they did so for practical reasons, not because it turned them on.

NNChangeAgain · 06/10/2016 15:07

Sex not gender. The two are not the same, despite your constant intermixing of the words.

This sums up the problem.

Mainstream society no longer understands the difference between the two.

In my mind, it's simple. You can select to be whatever gender you want, but sex is determined at the point of conception and cannot be changed.

But that is not how everyone understands it and saying that to someone who has a different understanding of the words can be very offensive.

All the misunderstanding stem from this.

IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat · 06/10/2016 15:22

NN

The government paper on Trans issues which was posted earlier actually states that people as assigned sex at birth. It horrifies me how this use of language is being accepted blindly.

Posting it again see P5 - Terminology
www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmselect/cmwomeq/390/390.pdf

"Each of us is at birth assigned a sex (male or female), based on our physical characteristics. Most people’s gender identity (the gender with which they associate themselves) and gender presentation (how they outwardly show their gender) will not differ from that typically associated with their assigned sex. Trans people, however, have a gender identity which differs from that of their (assigned) birth sex. Trans identities take a wide diversity of forms"

Elendon · 06/10/2016 15:27

In my mind, it's simple. You can select to be whatever gender you want, but sex is determined at the point of conception and cannot be changed.

Why is this offensive? Why should women be selective about words when describing the simple scientific fact that sex is biological and gender is a social construct.

Elendon · 06/10/2016 15:28

sorry that's to NNChange.

NNChangeAgain · 06/10/2016 15:32

Why is this offensive?

It is offensive because to many people, the words gender and sex are interchangeable.
So saying, as I did today, that my scientific knowledge means I do not believe it is possible for people to change sex is interpreted as transphobic on my part as they hear me saying that it's not possible to be 'trans'.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 06/10/2016 15:32

Thank you for re-posting that. I think it is a very important document for people to read, clicking on some of the links to submissions as they do. I feel for the lesbian groups and individuals who submitted perspectives, for example, because they were virtually ignored. At the same time, do remember that this is not the final government position. It was merely a Committee report. I'm not sure what the final position of the Government was - please do check. What it does show, though, is the power of the trans lobby to influence government to some degree and to have their position accepted as the orthodox one....

OP posts:
Elendon · 06/10/2016 15:35

Trans identities take a wide diversity of forms" That would be male and female.

Or perhaps that includes mother, father, aunt, niece, sister, uncle, brother, son, daughter, grandmother, gran, nana, nanna, nonna, grandma, granddad, grandfather. And all the rest.

Elendon · 06/10/2016 15:47

I get you NN Absolutely. I cannot understand why others can't. It's simple science. You don't need a doctorate to understand the 'complexities'.

WankingMonkey · 06/10/2016 15:47

OK my sport post..I was wanting to go further into it but I had to pick the kids up.

The bit that should have been added is this..we hav e blanket rules based on sex for sport...as across the board men are stronger and faster than women due to biological differences.

My question is this. If womens sport should be open to transwomen because they lose some of the advantages than males have...what would we do with a male who 'identifies' as male, but is smaller than other males (petite..for want of a better word) and has a low testosterone level? Should we stick that person in with the women?

Because if the answer is yes, we are back to 'men' and 'not quite men' again. If the answer is no, why not? Given this person faces all of the 'unfairness' that transwomen would face competing in the male category.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 06/10/2016 15:48

The rot set in when people started using "gender" in place of "sex" in sentences like "we know the baby's gender". People seemed to feel that using gender was more tasteful than the blunt word "sex". Now lots of people use them interchangeably. The trans lobby like transgender precisely because it is woolly. If you describe yourself as transsexual you're obviously making a false claim. Sex changes simply can't happen. Gender, otoh, can devolve languidly onto stereotypes. No need to commit to specifics.

It may be that ATM is honestly confused. However for some time now I've been playing a sort of bingo using classic trans misrepresentations as they occur in her posts. I know at least one other posters has been doing the same. I may be intersex = 1 point. Less than 1% detransition = 1 point. And so on. Either, as some have suggested, she's being a very slow GF or she's regurgitating trans talking points without having herself analyzed what they actually say.

Not that I'm objecting. It's a useful exercise if nothing else, and sadly there's nothing much in a practical sense most of us can do about OP, which I find very worrying and frustrating. There are probably lurkers though I always forget, who may have found parts of the lengthy derails informative. And of course there's the bump effect.

Elendon · 06/10/2016 15:52

This does bring about a discussion of how we teach biology in schools.

I bet my house and life savings that if my child in an exclusively expensive private school was being taught that gender and sex are interchangeable, I would be having words with the head teacher. And my expensive voice would be listened to.

But in inner cities and poorer areas, who cares? It would be all about listening to the pro trans agenda.

Datun · 06/10/2016 15:53

IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat

I read part of that report (not all of it, it was winding me up).

However, I searched for 'autogynephilia', 'AGP', 'sexual motivation', and in desperation 'deviency'. NONE of those words were mentioned, much less addressed.

Out of interest I searched for 'feminist' and got one hit, quite a good one actually.

I may have been wrong and if anyone else can point me to that section, please do.

Elendon · 06/10/2016 16:00

Is biology transphobic? This is the question.

So saying that males have testicles and a penis is transphobic. An erection is transphobic. Producing sperm is transphobic. Testosterone is transphobic.

Elendon · 06/10/2016 16:25

And the saying 'Women are the weaker sex' is transphobic.

This quote from Wikipedia about transphobia says it all

Transphobia is a range of antagonistic attitudes and feelings against transgender or transsexual people, or against transsexuality. Transphobia can be emotional disgust, fear, anger or discomfort felt or expressed towards people who do not conform to society's gender expectations.

So it's all about gender and not sex. Except is isn't. And this message should never be given to young people and children.

CoteDAzur · 06/10/2016 16:27

ATM - re "Denying reality doesn't make the issue go away."

Oh the sweet irony of being told not to deny reality by someone who is well aware that we can't change sex but can't bear to be told they are male Grin

Elendon · 06/10/2016 16:29

discomfort felt how can this ever be policed. (because I feel I'm being policed right now).

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 06/10/2016 16:40

I heard from one young feminist who was beaten up by an MTT for being transphobic. She'd made a speech about endometriosis at a feminist meeting. What she found worse than the assault was the reaction of the other women, who insisted she be understanding because the poor MTT had it so much worse than her. Local MRAs were appalled. To them it was man beats up very small, much younger woman. To her supposed sisters any MTT was the most oppressed. The court case that followed was seen by some of the other feminists as all her fault. So disillusioning for a young woman. And when your allies are MRAs there's a lot wrong with your friendship group.

areyoublind · 06/10/2016 16:44

Absolutely insane! Such is the world.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 06/10/2016 16:54

This thread is so frustating

A certain poster is either on a wind up or has severe reading comprehension skills

Post after post after post from people saying that trans exists, they have no problem with trans, that things should be sex segregated as gender is made up bullshit

And then.....

Oh fuckit ....seriously whats the point

Elendon · 06/10/2016 17:05

The point Rufus is to try to help the OP in forming an answer to her question.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 06/10/2016 17:08

elenden

Thanks for that

I did mean whats the point in continuing my post but thanks for clarifying

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