Yes, it is another trans thread - attempted murderer Lauren Jeska

[PippaFawcett]

Absolutely no mention AT ALL in the BBC coverage that celebrated 'female' fell runner Lauren Jeska's reason for attempting to murder an athletic official is because she was discovered to be transgender and could have lost her titles, because obviously the women competing against her were at an unfair disadvantage.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-37439875

I was baffled at Jeska's motivation until I read the DM's version: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3801806/Former-fell-running-champion-Lauren-Jeska-admits-attempted-murder-former-rugby-player-Ralph-Knibbs.html#comments

Usual disclaimer that I have no issue with transgender people but this complete denial of the facts of biology does no-one any favours. And I presume this crime will go down as being perpetrated by a woman?

TentPegs yes I think the actual violence towards MTTs is homophobia dished out at gender non-conforming gay men.

transwomen are transwomen and no one needs to be ashamed of that, to hide that or pretend otherwise. To do so is in fact erasing transwomen and so should be considered transphobic.

This.

If we can use a number as tiny as the 14 US murders in 2010 to say proportional to the small population of transwomen in the US that means transwomen (of colour) are at high risk of being murdered than women, can we also say that proportional to the small population of transwomen and the much larger population of women the small number of transwomen who commit violent acts suggest that transwomen are more violent than women? No? You can't have it both ways.

Also, who is to say the black or Hispanic transwomen were not murdered for being black or Hispanic rather than trans? Given that these groups are at higher risk of violence both as perpetrators and victims?

Strange

you are quite right: trans people are not unique, and "every murderer [etc] will have a horrific story to tell. That does not excuse their crime, but it may explain it.

A lot of people have horrific stories to tell. They don't all become murderers. It doesn't "explain" anything. Ted Bundy had a pretty shitty start in life, do you think that explains why he killed all those women?

Excellent post Beachcomber.

I just wanted to clarify that the reason that black and Hispanic people in the US are at greater risk of violence both as victims and perpetrators is because they suffer socioeconomic disadvantages and discrimination on the grounds of race. I think the discrimination aspect especially applies to black and Latino transwomen who are doubly marginalised by society for being gender non conforming males and for being black or Latino. They gravitate for a variety of reasons towards the sex industry which puts them, like female prostitutes, at even greater risk of violence.

It's also a bit depressing to see a real dismissal of the attacks, abuse and fear transwomen do face - it may or may not be more than your average women - but there's a real dismissal of that on here. Almost beliittling of the real fear and dangers that trans people face.

I don't think anyone thinks transgender people do not get attacked. But surely you can understand that the anger about this is incited even more by bullshit statements such as

transwomen are at far greater risk of suffering from male vioence than non-trans women"

Documented attacks on transwomen are nil, or near to nil in this country. Compare that to 2 female deaths per week at the hands of males (attacks even higher)...and you can see that females have a right to be angry when it is claimed that transwomen suffer more violence than women do. Its just ridiculous. As is the attempts to absolve Jeska of any blame in this that have been shown throughout the thread. This person plotted a murder, and tried to carry it out. there is really no need for the 'oh but Ralph may have been transphobic' 'someone was cashing in' justification attempts.

Talk about having your cake and eating it.

How come you can be transgender for the purposes of crime committed against you and then a woman for the purposes of crimes that you commit yourself?

A crime has been committed against you, a transgender person? That is transgender hate crime. You've committed a crime? Oh, you're a woman. Suddenly no longer transgender for the purposes of statistics. Then if you are the victim of crime again, it is another transgender hate crime. Then you commit a crime again, you're a woman again.

If the transgender community are keen to record crime against them as transgender hate crime then they don't suddenly get to renounce their transgender status when they commit crime themselves. You're either transgender or you're not.

So is this an example of male violence?

Yes. As Jeska is male.

Or violence committed out by a 'real transwoman' ?

Also yes. Trans women..even 'real' ones, are also male. As much as thats not a very nice thing to point out, it is true.

The whole thing is a festival of having your cake, and other people's cakes, and eating all of them. And then demanding more cake.

venusinscorpio
The whole thing is a festival of having your cake, and other people's cakes, and eating all of them. And then demanding more cake.

...and then throwing a tantrum when Mummy says 'No, thats not your cake, you have to share, you've had enough cake. Other people also want cake'.

I think we urgently need an assessment of violent acts carried out by transwomen as considering how few transwomen there are they seem to be disproportionately represented in violent crime.

I agree with this. Lumping 'trans' crimes under whatever sex they wish they were is unhelpful in all cases.

There needs to be a separate category so that this can be monitored. Same for attacks ON trans people...though I do not know if those go into the 'attacks on women' stats or if they do indeed have their own category.

And then reporting Mummy to the authorities for cake crime, DJBaggy.

That's a really good point, hmm. As it is no longer acceptable to report crime by transwomen as being by transwomen, why is crime against transwomen separated out from crime against women?

If the reason is "relevance", ie the violence directed against transwomen is because they are transwomen, why does that not hold good for violence by transwomen, when it seems to be explicable as male pattern violence, and therefore the fact that they are transwomen is wholly to the point??

Can I have some of that cake while I try and work it out?

No, there's no cake left for you.

Cake or Kool Aid everyone? Try not to be too logical PoochSmooch, it kicks off my cognitive dissonance...

Chances are that the lack of reporting on Jeskas trans status is because she likely has a gender recognition certificate. That means F on birth certificate, women's prison, restrictions on official disclosure of trans status to journalists, the works. You can argue about how crimes need recording differently but as far as the law and the bean counters are concerned, she is a woman.

Her fellow fell runners couldn't tell she was trans (no matter how much people claim it's obvious from the photo with the benefit of hindsight) and the police dont perform genetic testing so recording crimes by or against passing, gender recognition act certified trans women raises practical and legal hurdles that nobody in any position of influence cares about solving.

This from the Telegraph

"Last night, one club official, who wanted to remain anonymous, told The Daily Telegraph that it was well known in thefell-running community that Jeska was transgender, but said he believed she hadn't told the professional bodies.

"Everyone has known this was going to come out, it was well talked about," he said."The feeling when she won her titles was that it was unfair on the girls. Some of the girls were upset."

So it seems like her fellow fell-runners did know.

And of course if nobody did know, then how come UK Athletics were involved at all? How did it even come up if everyone thought Jeska was female?

"Betsy, your figures of 27 killings of transwomen vs 1615 killings of women DO show a vastly increased proportional risk to transwomen in America compared with the general population, given that there are so many fewer of them. "

Why compare transwomen with women? Transwomen are men.

There were 4362 killings of men.

And a ridiculous % of transwomen work as prostitutes, which is a dangerous job.

And if we look at the actual killings they show typical black male death rates (i.e. very high). Full list of 2014 US transgender victims taken from here.

www.advocate.com/politics/transgender/2014/11/20/transgender-day-remembrance-those-weve-lost-2014

Alejandra Leos - Hispanic, shot by own boyfriend

Aniya Parker - black, shot in robbery gone wrong.

Ashley Sherman - black, shot. not believed to be a hate crime.

Betty Skinner, white, disabled & living in an assisted living communoity.

Gizzy Fowler - black, shot.

Kandy Hall - black

Brittany-Nicole Kidd-Stergis - black

Mia Henderson - black

Tiffany Edwards, - black

Yaz'min Shancez, - black

Zoraida Reyes - Hispanic prostitute

Has anyone SEEN the US murder rate for black males?

"Based on 1998 data for the eight communities studied, a 15-year-old urban African-American male faces a probability of being murdered before reaching his 45th birthday that ranges from almost 8.5 percent in the District of Columbia to just under 2.0 percent in Brooklyn, New York. By comparison, the probability of being murdered by age 45 is 2.21 percent nationally for all U.S. black males and 0.29 percent for all white males."

Hellloooooo?

"So it seems like her fellow fell-runners did know. "

I was basing that on what TheCountessofFitzdotterel said about knowing runners there who had no idea, which kinda contradicts the anonymous source. The articles also say that jeska had told a few other people and has been running before transition (so the athletics body would know anyway).

Either way this is about more than jeska but how crimes by and against trans people could be recorded. If transition wasn't a central aspect of her motive then I suspect it wouldn't have come up at all and she would be written off as one of the many violent women in Britain's prisons.

It is worth looking at British Athletics' 2014 policy on transgender, as was very well-established at the time of the attempted murder:

www.britishathletics.org.uk/EasysiteWeb/getresource.axd?AssetID=135407

FTM - compete as a male
MTF
may compete as female if had a gonadectomy OR if treatment brings testosterone levels in normal female range
otherwise must compete as a man

Should provide:

details of the following information at a minimum:
i) evidence of acquired gender under applicable law (e.g., gender recognition certificate or other form of legal recognition of acquired gender);
ii) details of any sex reassignment procedure undertaken (including date of orchiectomy or other surgical procedure);
iii) details of any post re-assignment treatment (name of treatment, dosage and periodicity); and
iv) details of any post-reassignment monitoring of treatment.

So the idea that Jeska had no testicles looks like bollocks.

So the idea that Jeska had no testicles looks like bollocks.

I see what you did there .

If sex work is a factor then wouldn't the comparison be women prostitutes verses transwomen prostitutes because women sex workers have a much higher rate of being murdered than 'non sex worker women'

On a brighter note this reminds me there's left over bday cake in the house

Also yes. Trans women..even 'real' ones, are also male. As much as thats not a very nice thing to point out, it is true.

Why is this not a very nice thing to point out? In all honesty it shouldn't be necessary to point it out anyway. It's just true. We need to stop all this dancing on eggshells.