Transwoman using women's loos at work

[CharlieSierra]

I've posted a bit about this over the past few days on the MN response to Spartacus thread in site stuff, but someone suggested I start a new thread about it here.

Earlier this week I was surprised to encounter an apparently male person in the women's loos at work. I understand from a colleague that they have just started the transitioning process, and it appears from all the research I have done that there is no way to avoid them invading our space. It would be discriminatory to prevent them.
We also have showers, presumably the same applies. I plan to take it up with HR, since none of the women in the building were told this could happen, but I haven't managed to speak to anyone about it yet.
I feel angry, powerless, silenced. It's obvious using the next cubicle that they use the toilet as a man would. We will have to adapt our behaviour, hide any discomfort so as not to make them feel uncomfortable. There are unisex accessible loos on every floor, but no, they want to be in ours.

1. Allowing trans women into a female loo isn't allowing all men. As Lozza said, the last thing trans women want is a penis. The majority are disgusted by their birth-given genitalia to the extent they don't view them as sexual.

1. The above point also applies to a communal shower. The day a trans woman struts proudly into a shower full of women with their meat and two veg swinging free is the day I eat my hat.

1. Any man can declare themselves to be a woman and get access to women's private spaces.
2. Any man can strut proudly into a women's shower and declare themselves to be a woman.

The majority are disgusted the penises? What about the 75 per cent who keep them? What about the ones who not only keep them but want to have sex with women with them?

Pinky - It's different because wanting a big house in Chelsea is material greed. Noone wakes up one day and thinks 'Fuck being Trevor and enjoying my white man priviledge! I'll ne Tracy from now on and live a life of ridicule and blokes threatening to kick my head in'.

The cheap stereotyping on this thread is making me feel sick

Ha! I knew you would ignore the violence /murder of POC sex workers in South America, and the the rise in violence against females and flame in indignation over a fictional character.

Winchester - They could but it would be a hell of a palava. I personally don't live in fear of that becoming a regular occurrance. I accept it's a risk. My genuine apologies if I've appeared dismissive but the general tone of 'I don't gove a fuck about their feelings I only gove a fuck about myself' put a very bad taste in my mouth. The rates of deprssion and suicide anong the trans community are too high and we can't ignore a vulnerable group just because some may take advantage.

Why would it be a palava? Man walks into shower/toilet with woman. No one stop him because self-identified transwomen are allowed in women's shower/toilets. Where the effort or palava in that?

It's already happening in America - you don't need to 'fear' it happening in the future - you can live with the certainty it is happening now.

Nat you are wrong. About 80% of transwomen still have their penis intact. Many of them are autogynephilic and/or identify as 'lesbians'.
Just because the ones you know are post surgery or may identify differently is pretty irrelevant in the bigger picture.
We were told that lie by Tara Hudson, ie her penis was 'inactive' due to hormone therapy. A quick google proved otherwise.
Of course all transgendered people are individuals but to assume they are all like the people you know is being naive in the extreme.

Nat I'll ask again as you obviously have missed my questions to you ..

What is a man?

You're basically 'accepting the risk' to all other women of sexual violence so that a small number of men feel better. It's not just caring about myself. You've shown that you put the feelings of a very few men above the risk to every single woman. That happens to include my daughter. I accept your apologies but you seem immune to other people's distress about this. 'Accept the risk'? To all women?

So rape is an acceptable risk for all women in order for these very few transgender men to feel validated? Not even safer, but just validated?

80%? Of how many asked? I'd love to know how accurate that figure is. I'm sure many do gave their penis intact still as the procedure to remove it is horrendous. Doesn't mean they like it. There are many types of trans women with different preferences. Bit like other groups. So let's say for arguments sake that allowing trans women access puts us at risk of perverts pretending to be women to get off. How do you suggest we protect vulnerable trans women? Or do you say 'fuck em'?

nat I hope you have your hat handy

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2227562/Colleen-Francis-Outrage-transgendered-woman-permitted-use-college-womens-locker-room-exposing-himself.html

I think I get where you are coming from - the trans people you know are lovely and have had a difficult time and you just want to b supportive. I get it - many of us have been there. But I'm afraid the evidence is overwhelming - if you define woman as a feeling in a man's head, then women and girls suffer.

Well this is the real question Nat and one that Trans people and trans supportuers should be asking from the start.

How to keep trans people safe in private spaces without putting women at greater risk. This is something trans supporters can campaign for.

Don't forget - allow TW into female spaces and they are just as much at risk as the women - because any man can get in.

So - individual sex neutral toilets. Separate sex neutral changing rooms with cubicles. Those for a start. They'll cost money but that's where trans people and supporters need to get their campaigning started.

Lozza, I'm interested to know your view on self identification. I can relate to a lot of what you are saying. I can't accept self ID though.

Nat Why do these men need to be in female spaces? Why can't men expand there bandwith to include them.Surely that is the logical response?

Kua - I've not bothered answering as it has fuck all to do with protecting vulnerable trans women. Winchester - so we shouldn't work towards protecting vulnerable people if they're a minority?

natwebb isn't it kind of obvious? Provide facilities specifically for transwomen. Or single occupancy secure cubicles (ie without the gap at the top and bottom allowing cameraphones to be used.).
Incidentally, the transwoman in the OP was already offered the use of a unisex facility, so it's not a case of safety. As you yourself admitted in a previous post.
Now perhaps you could provide us with some stats, to prove the 'hugely disproportinate rates of violence' that transwomen face in the UK.

Agree kua I don't see why they can't expand the bandwidth of being a man. I don't see how they are more at risk in a men's loo than a gay or disabled man.

Kua - I've not bothered answering as it has fuck all to do with protecting vulnerable trans women. Winchester - so we shouldn't work towards protecting vulnerable people if they're a minority?

How does it not?!

Hating your cock does not make you a woman.

Whilst this thread is about toilets and has some great posts on why it is problematic to allow men free access to women's facilities, my problem with transideology is fairly simple. Redefining women is a travesty when women's liberation from male violence is nowhere near being achieved. And not even redefinition, as no trans person or trans supporter will ever answer the damn question, just an obliteration.

It's very fundamental to me - if men can be women, then what am I?

firstshiny you're a 'non man' , at least according to the green party.
You're welcome

Yes, go ahead and work towards protecting vulnerable people, absolutely. When have I said you shouldn't? (I will also gently point out that it was you yourself that said it wasn't about protection and safety but about validation and 'living as a woman'.)

Still, no men in female spaces please. And kua's point is highly relevant. You want to redefine transwomen as women. So the questions are, what is a woman? And then, what is a man?

Lorelei - Do you really think we had made much progress? I'm not so sure.

And I'm afraid the Walliams reference has gone over my head.

Is gender fluidity a rejection of our (bizarrely strict) gender roles? Maybe. Personally, I think it probably is. I miss the older butch women who were the bedrock of the lesbian community when I came out. The young women/people now who would have been those women seem to be identifying more as agender or transgender. But would those women have come out as trans if it had been an option? Perhaps some of them would. Is it our place to say either way? No. We have no idea. They were certainly rejecting the role assigned to them at birth. I have friends who as butch women, have been hospitalised by men "objecting" to the way they dress or the way they cut their hair. One in the queue in a crowded chip shop. The idea that men won't do that to a trans woman in a toilet because they are in public is ridiculous and utterly naive. It takes very little to inflame men like that, and openly subverting gender and sexual roles is one of the quickest ways to do it - no one does it lightly.

Western society hasn't ever really recognised the people some cultures call Fa'afine, or two-spirits, or khanith (I won't go on, the list is endless) until but those people will always have been here. I'm not surprised that the way of reconciling themselves to their identity has become so medicalised in a society like ours. Why not make yourself look and feel more like the person you feel you are - in the same way that AFAB women and, increasingly, AMAB men do? It's inevitable. It is also inevitable that we are entirely unprepared as a society in dealing with this.

Like I said, I'm not proposing an answer. I'm not saying that women and girls should automatically accept trans women into their spaces. I'm not saying it is the job of women to keep trans women safe at perceived risk to themselves. I am definitely saying that forcing trans women into male spaces is dangerous. And I am definitely saying that the vast, vast majority of trans people deserve more compassion than they get.

And Kua, I appreciate the thought, but I am aware of the current state of gendered violence in the U.K. and the high proportion of trans POC sex workers and the violence they suffer.
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Allowing trans women into a female loo isn't allowing all men.

This is Danielle Muscato, a transwoman. Danielle makes no effort to appear female, this is Danielle post transition. If you believe TW are women, you believe Danielle is a woman. So if a TW or a predatory male enters a female changing room, how do you suppose I tell the difference when people like Danielle claim to be TW?

As Lozza said, the last thing trans women want is a penis.

Yet 4 out of 5 TW retain theirs

Oh crap forgot the pic