Transwoman using women's loos at work

[CharlieSierra]

I've posted a bit about this over the past few days on the MN response to Spartacus thread in site stuff, but someone suggested I start a new thread about it here.

Earlier this week I was surprised to encounter an apparently male person in the women's loos at work. I understand from a colleague that they have just started the transitioning process, and it appears from all the research I have done that there is no way to avoid them invading our space. It would be discriminatory to prevent them.
We also have showers, presumably the same applies. I plan to take it up with HR, since none of the women in the building were told this could happen, but I haven't managed to speak to anyone about it yet.
I feel angry, powerless, silenced. It's obvious using the next cubicle that they use the toilet as a man would. We will have to adapt our behaviour, hide any discomfort so as not to make them feel uncomfortable. There are unisex accessible loos on every floor, but no, they want to be in ours.

How is a man believing they're a woman not a delusion?

Though there have been numerous posts defending why Trans women should be allowed access to women's facilities I've yet to hear a coherent reason for this.

Trans women believe they are women. Why do they think this?

What is a women?

They are trans women not females . What is the reason that they can not use the males facilities? As, they are built with urinals and have cubicles.

If trans women are afraid of male responses/violence then that is a male issue not one for females to resolve. As, to be quite frank ,females have never been able to do so.

Have there been any reports of Trans women being assaulted by men in toilets?

Trans males should also access the female facilities.

I'm gender critical and would like to get rid off all stereotypes . Feel free to identify as you please. However, you can not ID yourself out of your sex. Male or Female.

Yes Pinky, a perfect comparison. Absolutely the same thing.

Winchester - flouncing would be leaving in annoyance. I'm bailing out as we obviously have very different points of view and the debate has turned stale. Are you 12?

Natwebb "t depresses me that my sons are going to grow up with people assuming they want to use their penis as a weapon to attack women."

You might find it depressing but I've behaved according to this belief able I was about 12 and I believe it's helped keep me safe, I left the uni laundry room because of a guy who made me uncomfortable just by instinct and he later attacked a woman in there, very easy to do at a quiet time.

And we can all bust that bathroom door lock in milliseconds

As for how many men will pose as women to get access for attack, did you watch the video Winchester linked to? One guy waited for an hour to attack s woman in a public bathroom.

By the way I'd also suggest boys be raised to follow their instincts and not to be so trusting as you seem to be.

Able = since
iPad is mad today!

Oh you're back? Have you any further thoughts on explaining your position on how MTT are the same as women?

Just to clarify
I mean boys should trust their instinct if they feel uncomfortable around anyone, it's not just a lesson for girls.

One poster says it's not possible to define what a woman is
I presume they say the same about a man

Natwebb - I thought you were bailing out because you couldn't answer a couple of questions that you're finding difficult. Am I to assume that you can answer them, but you're refusing to (I mean why would you do that?)

Why is your fear of sexual attack (which could happen anywhere) trump a TW right to live their life as a woman when that is what every fibre of their being is telling them they are?

But they aren't women, they can never be women. So my right as a woman to women only spaces trumps anyone with a penis's desire to share my space.

Why don't you get that?

If I can add to my pp.

And I ask this of Natwebb

What is a man?

I am one of those lesbians that the occasional trans activist suggests is some sort of fascist for not wishing to have an intimate relationship with someone with male anatomy.

I am one of those women who has been assaulted by men, several times, in public spaces, which has altered my behaviour forever.

I'm a feminist that believes that female biology is fundamental to female experience and female oppression.

I also suspect that the values of western society have absolutely fucked any natural and normal variations on the gender spectrum.

I have several trans friends, as many in the LGBT+ community do. Every single one of them just wishes to go through life safely, as AFAB women do. None of them is seeking sexual gratification when they use public toilets - they just want to pee. Some of them have such dysphoria over their genitals (if they have not had bottom surgery) that they don't/can't regard them as sexual organs anyway. I genuinely believe that a sexually predatory trans person is about as rare as a unicorn fart. But of course you can't say never.

I can't reconcile my experiences to a conclusive opinion. I don't see how it can be resolved to keep everyone comfortable and, more importantly, safe. There are plenty of LGBT+ spaces with gender neutral facilities. Would this work in wider society? I suspect it might attract the sort of people (mainly men, really) who seek out vulnerable people to pulverise for entertainment. Trans people, and trans women particularly, are at hugely disproportionate risk of violent assault. How do we prevent that? Of course it isn't the responsibility of women to protect them, but something has to be done, unless we're happy to sit idly by. I'm not.

But I don't see an answer.

Explain why it's different the nat?

Lozza - thank you for the most measured and informed post of the entire thread.

LOzza "I also suspect that the values of western society have absolutely fucked any natural and normal variations on the gender spectrum. "

Thing is, I thought we had made a lot of progress there but what is happening now is undoing it. We've gone from David Walliams Boy in a Dress to Woman can see shapes in 3D or woman has PCOS, therefore not those women must be men.

And we've got people talking about how they think long hair and painted nails is genuinely important for wimmin.

Not = now
I mean Boy in a Dress was fairly recent, now I think he'd be told he was a girl.

lozza I completely agree.

Lozza, the answer lies within male hands. As shown in the link below violence against females is at a record high.

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/sep/05/violent-crimes-against-women-in-england-and-wales-reach-record-high

The Trans women that at are heightened risk of assault/murder are those who engage in sex work, are POC and live in South America.

Not Dave from round the corner on Laurel Avenue and who has just come out of the armed forces and now wants to be known as Davinia.

I'm happy to post you a link if you wish to wish to help those mentioned above. (not Dave he is fine, having had a life of male privilege)

Nat - seriously this is ridiculous. Do you not have an answer to the points raised?

Trans people, and trans women particularly, are at hugely disproportionate risk of violent assault.

Disproportionate to whom? You don't mean to women, surely? If so, I'd dispute what you say.

Winchester - I have already told you that there is no point in discussing my views with you further. Your attitude to trans women disgusts me. Lozza summed up my views on the topic very articulately so I suggest you take up any further discussion with her.

I'm only asking whether you understand that allowing transwomen into female spaces allow all men into female spaces. How is that 'disgusting' to transwomen?

I'm also only asking if you think it's ok for a lone woman in a shower to have to share it with a lone strange man - or two or three men, Or maybe she's just fifteen? How is that disgusting to transwomen?

Nat You haven't answered my questions either

Not Dave from round the corner on Laurel Avenue and who has just come out of the armed forces and now wants to be known as Davinia.

The cheap stereotyping on this thread is making me feel sick.