Trans people to be JAILED in Alabama town if they go to "the wrong toilet"

[katmanwho]

Unbelievable. There has been a lot of hate recently in North Carolina with the bathroom bill. But this has got a lot worse. [ www.al.com/news/anniston-gadsden/index.ssf/2016/04/oxford_passes_law_aimed_at_tar.html]

So a transwoman will have to go the male bathroom. A transman in the female one. There's been cases of butch women being hassled already in female toilets.

Oh - and if you're in North Carolina and witness someone who you think is in the wrong bathroom, you can call the hotline.

Meanwhile, a convicted sex offender (who is also Ex Republican House Speaker) is allowed to go the male bathroom with boys.

The only good thing about this bill is that it's made people react to the discrimination and to show that many people think this is discrimination. Just like in the 60s. Apparently trans people are sexual deviants.

This is the real effect of hate.

Hermione Emma Watson herself said she didn't think R&H would last. She would definitely be a MNer and would definitely get told to LTB a few times.

I'm on book number 4, I think I'm slightly obsessed with HP now!

Sigh. I expected it. The lynch mob arrived.

They state that there has never been one case of a transperson attacking a woman or child in a bathroom and that according to spokespeople from the Transgender Law Center, the Human Rights Campaign and the American Civil Liberties Union, "There has never been a verifiable reported instance of a trans person harassing a cisgender person, nor have there been any confirmed reports of male predators 'pretending' to be transgender to gain access to women's spaces and commit crimes against them."

I mentioned that many transwomen were visibly male. A previous poster had mentioned a transwoman with a beard, I mentioned pride in a female penis.

Their response:

'We would also like to point out that very few transwomen have a beard. Beards cause dysphoria. While many can't afford bottom surgery and others don't want to go through the pain and recovery, they are not proud of their male characteristics. If they were proud of them, they wouldn't have gender dysphoria (be trans).

There may, indeed, be men who want to say they are trans and go wherever they want but that's a separate problem. We need to work on how to eliminate that problem without victimizing the transgender people, who are not the ones creating or sustaining it.'

(Yes, that part I agree with.)

I said:

' What worries me is this is not being properly thought through as to how open to abuse this is, or the implications for women as a vulnerable group, and it may end in one vulnerable group being thrown under the bus to protect another.'

The response:

'Exactly. They're throwing the transwomen under the bus to protect the ciswomen. We do not think you can say that transwomen are not women or that they don't deserve to be treated like women just because some men will claim they're women. "Chose to say he was trans" is not the same thing as being trans. The focus should be on finding a way to weed out these men who are supposedly saying they're trans to invade women's private spaces (see paragraph above) instead of blaming the transgender people. We think society needs to protect someone who is sincerely transitioning, not throw them under the bus to protect 'the real thing'.'

Argh. Ever really, really wish you'd just shut up and kept your head down?

Italiangreyhound
Whereas I believe the results of that study, have there been any others or systematic reviews on the subject?

Oh rumbling - I think you were very brave to post your beliefs! And the responses are utter crap BTW - no such thing as a female penis for a start. And TW are absolutely not being thrown under a bus, their designated spaces which they fought for for years are not being infiltrated by people who are basing a biological fact on a feeling, and expecting everyone else to go along with their fairy tale. Ask them if it is fine for Danielle Muscato to change in a ladies locker room. And if they say yes ask how that is different from a big standard man changing.

There have been some excellent points made in this thread, I'd be tempted to C&P words from here if you feel like carrying on with them.

I admire you for persevering, rumbling.

But if it were me, I couldn't argue with anyone who simply denied that anything I said had any validity whatsoever. It would just be too exhausting. I don't think anyone would think badly of you for knowing when to stop flogging a dead horse.

The really sad thing is these are friends. Young, idealistic friends with young, earnest trans friends who are baffled that I'm revealing myself as this awful person full of what they perceive as hate.

Can anyone link me to mentions of female penis and transwomen who continue to present as outwardly male? Daniella does at least mention a long term commitment to transition and shows evidence of dysphoria, but I know we've discussed and shared links here of transwomen very happy with their male attributes and intending to keep them.

HermioneWeasley Re "What kind of appalling person does that, in order to validate their "womanhood"?" A narcissist?

(I know you know, but for anyone who does not....Narcissism is the pursuit of gratification from vanity or egotistic admiration of one's own attributes. The term originated from Greek mythology, where the young Narcissus fell in love with his own image reflected in a pool of water.". Thank you Wikipedia! Unable to leave the beauty of his reflection, Narcissus lost his will to live. He stared at his reflection until he died.)

TalkingintheDark that is so f-ing awful, being worried about the men because they are Asian and not the girls. How very interesting, I wonder what excuse is used when victims and perpetrators are the same racial group, as they often are!

rumblingDMexploitingbstds re "Sigh. I expected it. The lynch mob arrived. They state that there has never been one case of a transperson attacking a woman or child in a bathroom and that according to spokespeople."

Did you say Women decide for yourselves...

Re 'We would also like to point out that very few transwomen have a beard. Beards cause dysphoria. While many can't afford bottom surgery and others don't want to go through the pain and recovery, they are not proud of their male characteristics. If they were proud of them, they wouldn't have gender dysphoria (be trans)."

That's kind of a circular argument isn't it! There are trans men with beards...

Alex Drumond and Danielle/Dave Muscato...

"I’m coming out publicly today as a transgender woman.
The new name I have chosen is Danielle, and I’m keeping my last name. I intend to transition in the near future."
For all practical purposes, very little will change as far as my work.

www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/11/17/today-im-saying-goodbye-to-my-old-self/

Re that comment "We do not think you can say that trans women are not women or that they don't deserve to be treated like women just because some men will claim they're women." How about they are not women because they are not! they are trans women, which is separate group, they have the rights of their group, which might mean to go swimming in a special trans swimming group or to apply for a job only open to a trans woman or a trans person.

If they were women they would not be trans. It only works if you totally re-define what to be a woman is, and that is what is underway now. And it is fucking maddening that women are so willing to be redefined as anyone who feels like a woman.

Ask them who can define what it feels like to be a woman, because I bet no two women will feel exactly the same but biologically we are pretty much all the same.

"Chose to say he was trans" is not the same thing as being trans. The focus should be on finding a way to weed out these men who are supposedly saying they're trans to invade women's private spaces (see paragraph above) instead of blaming the transgender people. We think society needs to protect someone who is sincerely transitioning, not throw them under the bus to protect 'the real thing'.'

But the thing is even if these are 'real' trans women they are still biologically male and females don't want to share private spaces and undress and shower in front of biological men. If those on that group wish to, fine, join or create some sort of unisex showering club, but don't expect my daughter or me or my friends or their mothers or grandmothers to be comfortable with male-bodied people in intimate spaces.

Trans girls at college are offered separate safe spaces to shower etc but they sometimes do not want that, they want to be in with all the girls. Maybe some of these very liberal women (I am assuming they are women) could cast their minds back (unless they have lost them!) to when they were 14 or 15, or even 13, and they were growing breasts and starting periods and were allowed the sanctuary of a place to change away from the male gaze (no matter what that male felt about himself) and now thy would deny young girls and women that privilage. What right do they have to do this. NONE!

Interestingly, men are sometimes unhappy to have a female-bodied person (AKA a woman) in their private space. And I don't blame them at all.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/05/05/uk-gym-banned-trans-man-from-using-mens-changing-rooms/

Just also to say that genuine transsexual women, who have had an operation to change their penis are not very happy about trans gender women flashing their's off. So the 'trans community' does not all share one view and to pretend they do is wrong. Plus who is going to decide who is a 'genuine' trans person. once you take operations and hormones and medical assessments out of the process and have just self declaration, then really you presumably have to take everyone at their word! when in the history of the world do we ever do that!

This is interesting... "Update on Colleen Francis"
This is a blog by … A girl that survived being born transsexual.
ben-girl-notesfromthetside.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/update-on-colleen-francis.html

Lweji Re "...have there been any others or systematic reviews on the subject?" None that I know of but do tell me if you find one, please.

My own personal suspicion would be that no such report would now be commissioned as it may be seen as transphobic! Plus if they were including in such a study all the male-bodied people who dress as women and/or identify as trans and commit crimes then the figures may be even higher because more and more men are identifying as trans without any kind of hormone treatment or surgery! If these men are, men (of course they are but this is where the dance of lunacy comes in) then they will indeed be just as likely to commit crimes. If trans women are willing to commit to suregery and hormones and still retain a male pattern of criminality, the I think those who are not willing to commit to surgery etc will certainly be no less likely to have male patterns of criminality.

And before anyone shouts about my wanting males to go for surgery, I don't mind at all what they do. But if they have a penis they do not belong in female spaces. At all.

sorry, missed out a few words...

"... then they will indeed be just as likely to commit crimes as other men....

or to apply for a job only open to a trans woman or a trans person.

They also ha e the right not to be duscriminated against for being trans in the workplace nor on any job that they apply for unless that job is one of the jobs which is allowed to be open to women only e.g. rape crisis.

There's discrimination (picking on someone because of who they are) and then there's not agreeing with someone who is insisting that you have to believe somthing you do not believe.

rumbling ask them to read that article by Max and then explain why she is transphobic and why she is not entitled to base her opinion on lived experiences.

Just also wanted to say, excellent post up thread by talkinginthedark

They claim there are no verifiable crimes of trans women committing crimes in women's spaces etc. In future there will certainly be none at all because any crimes that might be committed will be recorded as being committed by women

Thank you

Some excellent points, I'm lifting them wholesale. (Coward that I am.) I WISH there was somewhere to move this thread and its resources to a permanent spot, there are so many good links here, and a very calm debate compared to many on this subject on MN!

I was there was somewhere between chat and AIBU.

Maybe MTMH - a kind of maximum traffic minimum hassle!

One that doesn't disappear after 30 days. I will ask Mumsnet!

KateInKorea

The study found that men to TW do have a (Iirc) 6x greater risk for crime and violent crime than women. On my phone I couldn't analyse the data properly, but there's info missing (iirc) which was if by comparison with men was the same or lower. I presume it's the same or I expect the authors would have pointed out. Maybe.

I don't know about other studies, but as someone that works in science and had seen many of these articles give different results, I'd treat it cautiously. I thought the measures they used were crude (what does violent crime in general mean?) And they said themselves that the statistical power was low.
It's worrying, but I wouldn't treat the article as the ultimate word on the subject.

Hi all - we're going to move this thread over to Feminist Chat so it doesn't go poof.

Hi all - we're going to move this thread over to Feminist Chat so it doesn't go poof.

Brilliant! Thank you

CoteDAzur
Is this a problem of English comprehension? I clearly say in that first quote that I don't care what people do with their bodies. And I clearly say in that second quote that what I care about is what those people do to us women.

No incomprehension on my part. The bit where you mention those who couldn't even be bothered to do away with their male genitalia indicates that you do care, because you are passing judgement/expressing an opinion on transwomen who do not have surgery. No need to include if you were neutral on the subject.

WeDoNotSow
fascicle
If you don't think that it's sleight of hand to convince people that it's gender and not sex we should segregate by, then I don't know what to tell you.

Wherever possible, I think we shouldn't segregate. In some situations it might be warranted, but it's often arbitrary and it can be harmful and divisive. With a few exceptions, it's not something that is enshrined in law (whereas the right to non discrimination is). In cases where some argue that segregation is necessary, privacy would often do just as well.

Why do you think there's any sleight of hand involved? I think most people don't give it much thought but if asked, my money would be on the general public expecting those who are transgender to e.g. use the toilets that reflect their identity, not biology at birth.

Lweji
I wouldn't treat the article as the ultimate word on the subject.

I agree. So when claims are made about offence rates for the transgender population, they are extrapolated from this one longitudinal study from Sweden on post operative individuals? There are all sorts of reasons why this study may not be representative.

Italiangreyhound
How about they are not women because they are not! they are trans women, which is separate group, they have the rights of their group, which might mean to go swimming in a special trans swimming group

I find that idea pretty repugnant – defining and segregating others on the basis of individual difference. Something we've moved away from as a society.

I've looked at the supplementary tables on the article.

Table S2. Risk of various outcomes in sex-reassigned individuals in Sweden compared to controls matched for birth year and final sex.

Sample data:
Any crime 60 (33 MtoF /27 FtoM)
Violent crime 14 (8 MtoF /6 FtoM)

Adjusted* hazard ratio (95% CI):
Male-to-female only 18.1 (5.4-61.2)

Based on 8 people, in Sweden.
I'd really like more data to draw any firm conclusions.

As far as commissioning studies goes, I'd hope that trans organisations would support such studies to see if they'd support their campaigns.

I also think it would be important to distinguish between post-op, post hormone treatment, trans and, shall we say, psychological (or self-reporting) trans.

Urgh. I'm sorry to have to say this, (and the thread has no doubt moved on) but can we please stop using successful suicide rates to indicate winning of the oppression olympics? It is massively offensive to people with severe depression who just arent good enough at killing themselves.
Many, many more women attempt suicide each year than men, funnily enough that always gets forgotten. Or of course someone will say "oh they werent real suicide attempts, just attention seeking. Silly women

but if asked, my money would be on the general public expecting those who are transgender to e.g. use the toilets that reflect their identity, not biology at birth

But would you expect the general public to let a man into a women's changing rooms?
Because, what with the current trend of TW 'presenting as men' that's what we're talking about, isn't it?
It would also be 'transphobic' to question their 'inner truth' I'm presuming?
I'd bet you'd find the general public a little less accommodating if they realised that trans people currently are NOT the 'transsexuals' that the general public think of, who long to live as women, who want to get rid of their mans penis etc, but bearded 'lady stick' owners who believe that being a woman is no more than a 'feeling'.
I think you are grossly misjudging the general public if you think they'd happily accept the above.

I'll gladly take you up on that bet tbh

Wherever possible, I think we shouldn't segregate. In some situations it might be warranted, but it's often arbitrary and it can be harmful and divisive.

Can you give some examples of where this might be the case?