Trans people to be JAILED in Alabama town if they go to "the wrong toilet"

[katmanwho]

Unbelievable. There has been a lot of hate recently in North Carolina with the bathroom bill. But this has got a lot worse. [ www.al.com/news/anniston-gadsden/index.ssf/2016/04/oxford_passes_law_aimed_at_tar.html]

So a transwoman will have to go the male bathroom. A transman in the female one. There's been cases of butch women being hassled already in female toilets.

Oh - and if you're in North Carolina and witness someone who you think is in the wrong bathroom, you can call the hotline.

Meanwhile, a convicted sex offender (who is also Ex Republican House Speaker) is allowed to go the male bathroom with boys.

The only good thing about this bill is that it's made people react to the discrimination and to show that many people think this is discrimination. Just like in the 60s. Apparently trans people are sexual deviants.

This is the real effect of hate.

'AFAB' is part of the vocabulary of some transactivists, that's what made me wonder.

I'm sorry, but this also winds me up. I was born female, no-one assigned me. It's not someone's judgement that I'm female - it's a biological fact.

lweji there did used to be a requirement to 'live as their chosen gender' before surgery. And yes it is pretty meaningless.

But some tramsexuals are definitely not breaking down gender stereotypes. They are reinforcing them by defining what women like and how women feel. And saying that makes me a woman. Instead of saying this is what I like and this is how feel and that makes me me.

They are correct gender is fluid. Gender is not binary. Gender is imposed according to sex not defined by it. And changing your gender does not change your sex.

"I am curious, though, if female to males are accepted as males among me"

Of course they are. Wasn't the film Boys Don't Cry about one such case of brotherly acceptance?

Oh wait...

... males among men.

I was thinking of myself - I'd love to be the bubbly outgoing life and soul of the party type, don't think that's going to happen.
Also people who are anorexic - are sort of trying to change what they believe they are.
Depression is very common ime. That can be because you feel a failure, hate how/who you are.
Obviously I am a layman not an expert. But transgender people seem to be considered to have some special problem. I was wondering if that is the case.

I view it as a very special form of body dismorphia.
So noone should be cruel about it, but don't join in the fairy tale of the King's Clothes - or some inncoent cherub / scientist will shout:

"Look at the king, the king, the king ! The king is in the altogether, the altogether ... "

And king, not queen ...

Pinky re "there are some excellent points on this thread which I will be saving next time I get into a debate with a deluded TA."

Make sure you save any links because this thread is in chat and will disappear very soon!

I wonder if it is worth starting threads on these topics either in Feminism (to attract like-minded people) or somewhere else, that will not disappear, to attract general traffic.

MissMargie re "I was thinking of myself - I'd love to be the bubbly outgoing life and soul of the party type, don't think that's going to happen." Actually that is something you can change, you can become more outgoing if you wish to, it's not easy and it may never feel natural to you, but you can do it.

Re "people who are anorexic - are sort of trying to change what they believe they are." I am not sure I know what you mean by this?

Yes depression is very common. I guess it is sometimes different levels of it. Sometimes more sever.

Re "... transgender people seem to be considered to have some special problem. I was wondering if that is the case." That's a whole big can of (pink) worms and I guess what I was getting at with my questions of when a person might come out' as trans. I wonder if this is different to feel trans when faced with female or male puberty or to be faced with 'mid-life' crisis. Is it a dysphoria about sex or gender? Just musing. These things seem to get conflated in the public mind. But if it was really sex dysphoria wouldn't all trans people seek surgery, and many do not.

Maybe if he had paid attention to sex (not gender) education at school he wouldn't have had an unplanned pregnancy?

I'm sorry, but this also winds me up. I was born female, no-one assigned me. It's not someone's judgement that I'm female - it's a biological fact.

I agree. (Its origins seem to be a bit mixed up with intersex people, possibly, which may be where the 'assigned' originally came from - I think there's some disagreement about the source.) But in an idle moment I found myself wondering what would happen if someone right now, today, was to try to define a place or group as for 'afab people' only. Could it be done? On what grounds would it be stopped? If I won the lottery and became a philanthropist could I declare that I was going to fund scholarships specifically for afab students?

Yes I'm wondering if this thread can be moved somewhere it won't disappear,

Maryz that link was not good for my blood pressure this morning! Imagine trying to "re-educate" Ina May Gaskin. The fucking arrogance of these idiots.

I think the OP has to ask for the thread to be moved. And I think that's unlikely. But I'm going to ask MNHQ anyway. This thread started out like many other trans threads but has developed into a really useful resource for anyone who refuses to swallow the rhetoric of extreme trans activism without question.

traditional notions of gender (from that article).

That is all gender is a notion.
People are not gender fluid.
Gender itself is fluid being as it is, just an idea, a fashion and a cultural meme.

I think part of the problem is the issue has got very clouded.

There are people who are intersex. They have been assigned a sex at birth that is not what they

There are people who are genuinely unhappy with the body they have grown into and who are desperate to change that body.

There are people who are unhappy with their sexuality or who are not allowed to express their sexuality in the culture in which they live so it is more acceptable to present as the opposite sex.

There are people who like dressing outside the cultural norm.

And there are people who for whatever reason want to follow the cultural norms for their sex but still claim to be the other sex when it suits them.

The latter are the ones who are grabbing most attention and making life harder for everyone else (except themselves) by trying to kid on that gender exists.

The new gender-neutral language recognizes that some transgender, genderqueer and intersex individuals may require midwifery care and do not identify as women

Fuck. Off.

In a nutshell, the open letter says that trans guys who give birth are not men; they are women because of their biology

No shit, really?

Identifying as a man and then using your body to do literally the most female thing on the planet is such a headfuck.

And no, I'm not going to erase the millions (billions?) of women who get pregnant, give birth and breastfeed by pretending it's something men can do. Pregnancy and childbirth are protected characteristics because only women can do them - fuck with that to the detriment of all women currently protected.

I'm beginning to think the definition "transphobia" is "to not agree with everything every trans person says". Non-trans people seem to accept this willingly

Sadly, people shout loudly and they get heard. Whether what they have to say is worthy of listening to or not.

I've read all about Trveor McDonald and my blood boils! As a gay trans man I do wonder if he is a male version of Autogynephilia? What is that word? Autoandrophilia.

'He' has used his female body to produce two children and breast feed them. I don't mind at all but get your mitts of women's services!

I've learnt two things this week. One is that we need to keep compassionate, IMHO, if we lose the compassion we feel for women and girls, and also the compassion we feel for trans people, we will be lost. We will just be angry women and we know no one really listens to them! It's OK to be angry women, but I don't want to be just an angry woman.

And secondly I am learning the more I read and the more I read here not to be scared to speak up, to tell it like is is. There will be people who will say I am transphobic or a TERF and I know I am not. But I am happy to be a PERF Penis excluding from female spaces!

When I find interesting links on here I save them and I am learning how to talk about this issue carefully. if you shout a lot and post 'too much' it just becomes white noise, but I am hoping that I can use what little power I have to pass on stories and news.

I do not hate trans people, I don't want anyone to suffer. Sadly sometimes we need to say enough is a enough of women and girls being pushed around. I like that phrase women and girls it reminds me it's not just middle aged women like me who this affects, it's young girls like my daughter who are being pushed around. If you are reading and have not written to your MP about proposed changes in the law, please do.

If the law does change and you find your female spaces full or filling up with people who are not female, do write to someone about it, maybe Marie Miller, we do not need to give up or feel beaten...

Not a woman but a 'Transwoman'. WTF is a 'Transwoman' ?

IT'S A BLOKE IN A DRESS!

is how I feel about it.

I don't care what people wear but having a legal lie is wrong. And it leads to other, dangerous repercussions as highlighted in this thread. My heart goes out to Lifeisunjust because it clearly is. But it's personal bravery in telling that story that's so important - no media outlet is telling both sides. And if the media did they'd select the most positive as the fashion is for sex change. Sadly there's no fashion against narcissism.

I am quite happy for transwomen (and men) to be transwomen (and TM) As such they are a minority and they are victims of prejudice. (Although if ideas of gender were less entrenched then they wouldn't be).

Them being TW helps in e.g. accessing the correct services and gathering the correct statistics.

Transwomen is what they are. Not women.

And post-op TWs are not blokes in dresses. They are TW in dresses and as such have different medical needs and needs in respect of incarceration etc. than either men or women.

Women are victims of entirely different prejudice. So the groups are and should remain distinct.

There are of course men like Grayson Perry who are blokes in a dress and happy to admit they are simply wearing clothes they like and that is that. (I thought Eddie Izzard was of similar mind but things I have read recently suggest maybe not).

I am for more specific labelling not less whilst bearing in mind we are all equal members of the collective group that is people.

Good post, Eggs.