Trans people to be JAILED in Alabama town if they go to "the wrong toilet"

[katmanwho]

Unbelievable. There has been a lot of hate recently in North Carolina with the bathroom bill. But this has got a lot worse. [ www.al.com/news/anniston-gadsden/index.ssf/2016/04/oxford_passes_law_aimed_at_tar.html]

So a transwoman will have to go the male bathroom. A transman in the female one. There's been cases of butch women being hassled already in female toilets.

Oh - and if you're in North Carolina and witness someone who you think is in the wrong bathroom, you can call the hotline.

Meanwhile, a convicted sex offender (who is also Ex Republican House Speaker) is allowed to go the male bathroom with boys.

The only good thing about this bill is that it's made people react to the discrimination and to show that many people think this is discrimination. Just like in the 60s. Apparently trans people are sexual deviants.

This is the real effect of hate.

I would bet on 'the general public' wanting trans people to only use the toilet of their feelings if they also 'pass' convincingly. That explains for example heartfelt campaigns for pretty trans women criminals to be put in female prisons but a lack of fuss over the not pretty ones. The general public is pretty shallow.

It's not based on 8 people! It is based on 323 people and telling you how many of them committed a violent crime.

That would be like saying we can't really saying what sex lone serial killers are likely to be because there have only been eight lone serial killers in the last thirty years, so we will need more data.

8 people who committed a violent crime.

Fascicle re "Why do you think there's any sleight of hand involved? I think most people don't give it much thought but if asked, my money would be on the general public expecting those who are transgender to e.g. use the toilets that reflect their identity, not biology at birth." i was going to reply but can I just say WeDoNotSow at Mon 09-May-16 16:15:15.

Re "I find that idea pretty repugnant – defining and segregating others on the basis of individual difference. Something we've moved away from as a society."

WHOEVER is segregating the trans community on anything other than safe and private spaces which are segregated by sex, it is not me!

I don't care or mind if trans women are sitting with me in all the normal places of life, working alongside me, shopping alongside, campaigning alongside, I am not attempting to segregate on supposed gender or sex in general area of life at all. I am asking for the existing spaces that are segregated on SEX to continue and if a trans woman has had her sex legally changed by operation then that is fine.

WHY is this issue so important to trans people. It i snot about safety because we are constantly being told being around people with penis is not dangerous, and anyway safe spaces are offered to trans people who reject them. Trans women are very keen to be in women only spaces because this validates their identity. I don;t think it is women's job to validate anyone else's identity. i don;t go to the female loos to feel like a woman. I am more than happy to use an individual gender neutral toilet. The idea we want to segregate trans people away is totally misrepresentation. If we have got away from 'segregating others' why do we have male or female toilets at all? Or individual spaces for men and women in prison or shelters? Why do we have clubs like Guides and Brownies for girls, why do we have women's or men's groups, like slimming or swimming or whatever clubs?

I am guessing were we to do this as a society trans people would be the first to complain because they don't want a totally unsegregated society, they want to be included in female only spaces or male only spaces. So if you are arguing for not segregating on any grounds you may find you are not speaking on behalf of trans people at all. (Which of course would be true anyway as trans people might have very different views on a variety of things - something I would want to respect and understand as I don't dislike trans people at all, but that doesn't mean women and girls should be 'guilted' into giving up hard won rights to privacy.

I'm also curious how far you would like to take this not segregating anyone? School, all the years and age groups in together? sports clubs and activities, the novices in with those who have participated for years and years and honed their skills, boxing, all the weight classes together?

You know there are lots and lots of cases for not segregating people, for including in education, in decision making etc etc. These are all things women and feminists have been fighting for. Why must the trans fight basically come down to which toilet or shelter or prison to use?

'8 people who committed a violent crime'

It is telling you the likelihood of members of a group committing violent crime.

The sample size the data is based on is 323. The number who committed a violent crime is 14 - 8 and 6.

So the data is based on a sample size of 323. It is completely untrue to say that data is based on 8 people.

It isn't given you any data at all based on 8 people! There is no distinction made between the 8, so no data at all is actually based on the 8.

Did you read the full article?

The authors acknowledged lack of power due to the small sample.

It's a starting point. It shows its worth investigating if the effect is real or not.
But it can hardly be taken as a significant result or to be able to extrapolate to larger numbers or other communities.

My post posted twice, apologies, I've asked Mumsnet to please remove one of them!

I read the original research paper. It has been discussed on here before. It is statistically significant.

Lweji - re "Based on 8 people, in Sweden. I'd really like more data to draw any firm conclusions."

Do you know what a "cohort study" is?

They have taken into account every single trans person in the whole country >> " Participants: All 324 sex-reassigned persons (191 male-to-females, 133 female-to-males) in Sweden, 1973–2003."

Would you rather they made numbers up? For all the hoo-ha about post-op trans people, their numbers are minuscule when compared to the population.

Actually, 300 is not huge. We have to adapt the size of the entire sample to thr expected result. Ideally there should have been more than 8 people who committed crimes, which would mean a much larger cohort to reach the desired power.
It's fine that they worked with what they had. It's just that, and as they pointed out, the power of the study in this respect wasn't quite high enough.
Furthermore, it's one study in one country at one time.
As I said, interesting results, should be taken into consideration, care should be taken in drawing too far reaching conclusions.

It's a cohort study of all the post op trans people in the entire country, a country where it's pretty much the best place in the world to be trans.

It is statistically significant
You should read up on the fallacies of statistical significance.

It may be all the trans people, but given the low crime rate, it's a small sample if you want to make it into a rule.
I'm not saying it should be dismissed, just not taken as gospel.
It wouldn't be the first time that different studies, similarly good, gave different results with different samples.

The problem is though Lweji with the way things are heading there will be no future studies. There will be no transwomen and no transmen. Just women and men.

So no one will know how many men are pretending to be trans to gain access to women's spaces.
No one will know how many people transition or detransition.
No one will know how many trans people commit or attempt suicide.
No one will know if the crime rates for TWs are lower or higher than for men.

We won't know if transwomen are more marginalised than TM or vice versa or how that compares to non trans population.

There will be no discrimination against TWs because they will just be women and the world is just peachey for women.

There will be no evidence to back any point of view because the truth will have been erased.

That doesn't benefit anyone.

We will however see rising rates of women rapists, women with testicular cancer, women with erectile dysfunction, pregnant men, menopausal men and children with gender dysphoria and delayed puberty and people who are compelled to adapt their gender identity to their sexual orientation instead of society adapting to them.

Musing aloud here, but I wonder if some of the baby transing that parents are going in for right now has something to do with the way that the words sex and gender have become interchangeable, even though their definitions are very different.

Which might explain why, when little Johnny doesn't want to play with trucks and diggers, but expresses a desire to play with dolls and wear pink his parents, instead of thinking "oh look, Johnny is exploring playing with dolls and wearing pink he must be a small child then" they now see that toys/colours/clothes that have been rigidly gender associated for the last 10 or so years are in some way innate to the child's sex.

So, instead of just enjoying that their son is not taking on board those rigid gender lines and is merely playing, they decide that because he likes things that are aimed at gender feminine, he must therefore be sex girl... and Joanna is born. They then rigidly reinforce all gendered behaviours and choices that solidify the new sex and discount or actively disincentivise all those that would be considered of the old sex.

I probably haven't explained that terribly well, it's something I've been pondering for a while though, that because in common parlance gender = sex, when a child fails to stick to their societally enforced gendered play and behaviour, they are somehow considered to be failing to stick to their sex as well. So it must be "wrong" and "fixed".

Awful things to teach a very young child before they've had time to work out who they are for themselves really.

It's a shame if more studies aren't conducted. It still doesn't mean we should take whatever there is available as gospel with no critical perspective.

The concerns are understandable. And I'd probably push for proper studies demonstrating safety, not dissimilar to drugs tests, before policies are implemented. Rather than dismiss it off hand.

And let's not forget the fact that doctors are so quick to sterilise children. That is fucking terrifying as well

The transing children aspect of the whole thing worries me intensely.

If adults need to mutilate themselves to feel ok, that's one thing, choosing to do it to a child is quite another.

"You should read up on the fallacies of statistical significance"

What are "fallacies of statistical significance"? I studied statistics at graduate level and have no idea what you mean by that.

It's more difficult on the phone. I'll link later.

SmallLegsOrSmallEggs that's a pretty grim view of the world. I do hope you are not right but I fear you will be.

I feel so sad that there is no other way for people to feel accepted or liked than for everyone to buy into the idea that although they have male DNA, and a male body and were socialized male they are actually female, because they say so! In what area of life do we allow people to do things based on their say so alone. People can make their own choices based on their say so, for themselves, like having hamburger or jacket potato for tea. But once their choices begin to impact others, I'm not the bus driver but I think I am so I'm driving this bus, then we say no, we don't agree.

I feel so frustrated for trans people too. I've got to know, just a little, two lovely trans women. They are sensitive, and thoughtful, they care about others, it is the qualities of them as people I like and respect. I wonder why some trans activists think by being aggressive and pushy we will feel they are more female!

Lweji I too hope for more studies but I think by erasing biological sex we will not see anything like this studied again. It would be too hard to recruit for, I would imagine, the doctors should tie it into surgery as a way to keep a record of the experiences of trans people, anonymously. But in reality most trans people do not have surgery. If trans people are allowed to self identify then there will be no trail to follow - males and females will just vanish to be replaced by females and males. Meaning will be lost.

The baby trans thing is really, really disturbing. This video bugs the shit out of me - how anyone can't see it's just a bunch of stereotypes and brainwashing, I don't know. The very first thing mentioned - "playing with different toys [than a boy would]". We. Are. Going. Backward. Aaarrrgghghgh.