Trans people to be JAILED in Alabama town if they go to "the wrong toilet"

[katmanwho]

Unbelievable. There has been a lot of hate recently in North Carolina with the bathroom bill. But this has got a lot worse. [ www.al.com/news/anniston-gadsden/index.ssf/2016/04/oxford_passes_law_aimed_at_tar.html]

So a transwoman will have to go the male bathroom. A transman in the female one. There's been cases of butch women being hassled already in female toilets.

Oh - and if you're in North Carolina and witness someone who you think is in the wrong bathroom, you can call the hotline.

Meanwhile, a convicted sex offender (who is also Ex Republican House Speaker) is allowed to go the male bathroom with boys.

The only good thing about this bill is that it's made people react to the discrimination and to show that many people think this is discrimination. Just like in the 60s. Apparently trans people are sexual deviants.

This is the real effect of hate.

OMG! Sorry - I assumed you'd read them all, and were re-reading with your DS. My bad

Erm, I guess my name is a bit spoiler-y isn't it?

I didn't really think this through.

"On these threads, trans people can't win. They are criticised for having surgery (you can't change biology argument)..."

Anyone can do whatever they want with their body imho, be it tattoos, studs in their eyebrows, forked tongue, nose job, boob job, suppress their own hormones & take artificial ones of the opposite gender, or cut off their penis & testicles if they so please. Frankly, I couldn't care less.

HRT & GRS does not change someone's sex, of course, and I do care about some males doing the above and presuming to redefine womanhood to suit their agenda.

"... and criticised for not having surgery (lack of commitment/intent argument)."

If it is galling and offensive to have post-op transwomen claim womanhood and push us around, those who couldn't even be bothered to do away with their male genitalia and STILL call themselves 'women' is never going to be OK, is it?

Re: "On these threads trans people can't win" perhaps that's part of the problem making it into a competition that one side has to win and I'm afraid the fault for that can be laid directly at the feet of the Transactivists.

TalkingintheDark
My emotionally abusive mother used to pull that shit about "not being able to win" when I called her on her behaviour and explained exactly why it was abusive; it's code for "I'm going to deflect the fact I'm refusing to listen to anything you're saying onto making this about you being mean to me because I'm the real victim here even though it's actually me being abusive to you" - it's a common trait in all self-absorbed narcissists whatever their sex or gender identity.^

Talking Not sure how you can find that meaning in my use of the term. It's a phrase, also used by non abusive people.

CoteDAzur
Anyone can do whatever they want with their body imho...Frankly, I couldn't care less.

If it is galling and offensive to have post-op transwomen claim womanhood and push us around, those who couldn't even be bothered to do away with their male genitalia and STILL call themselves 'women' is never going to be OK, is it?

The second quote suggests that you do care. It also underlines the point I was making about attitudes to surgery. Given that surgery is life altering, not likely to be perfect, and some people later wish to de-transition, it's understandable that some don't choose it.

emotion
As per my response to Talking it's a figure of speech, nothing more.

If women are being asked to be understanding of the reasons why so may trans women chose not to have surgery, surely it's reasonable to expect trans women to be equally understanding of women's position on all self-identifying trans women being allowed in women-only spaces?

Or are women - yet again - expected to be the ones to make sacrifices now that they have been redefined by trans women as privileged?

"The second quote suggests that you do care."

Is this a problem of English comprehension? I clearly say in that first quote that I don't care what people do with their bodies. And I clearly say in that second quote that what I care about is what those people do to us women.

If you tell me what you find difficult to understand, I can try to word it in a different way.

If someone wants to transition to being a woman and then later wants to transition back then where does it leave this 'feeling like a woman' stuff that we are meant to accept without question?

fascicle
If you don't think that it's sleight of hand to convince people that it's gender and not sex we should segregate by, then I don't know what to tell you.

I once said when arguing with a thicko TA that the crux of the issue is, sometimes it's appropriate to segregate by sex, and sometimes appropriate to segregate by gender. But thinking about it I can't think of a situation which is better to segregate by gender - it's so fluid, and there are (apparently) more than 2 genders, whereas segregating by sex is simple seeing as there's just 2. I'd be willing to be persuaded otherwise though.

"I can't think of a situation which is better to segregate by gender"

Me, neither. I can't give a shiny one if other females in a communal changing room feel butch, like the color blue, and play football. Who does, really?

boopsy lesbians are suppose to love ladydicks because the owners say they feel like a woman - that is enough. I've seen lesbians who say they are only attracted to women be attacked for being transphobic, "vagina fetishists" and "thinking like rapists"

It's revolting. Nothing more that corrective rape.

I have never met anyone in real life who thinks like mumsnet about trans issues

I seriously doubt it....you likely meet a lot of people who are keeping their true opinions to themselves lest they be brandished conservative bigots. It's mass effort to shut down any meaningful conversation on the topic that most grates.

It's not hip to speak to basic sense at the moment. I say that as a person 100% behind the LGB community.

I have never met anyone in real life who thinks like mumsnet about trans issues

Mumsnet is one of the few remaining forums where women can air their concerns about these issues without being labelled terfs or cis-scum.

I agree with fixit - you're not hearing the dissenting voices elsewhere because they are being systematically shut down.

SuburbanRhonda Re "My DD was initially in the trans activist camp. She has several trans friends and just assumed it was all one big happy family. She even called me a terf once sad; it hurt even more because I'd raised her as a feminist."

I am so glad "... she's read about Stefoknee and Davina and others and she is angry that her trans friends are being tarred with the same brush". Hooray. It is so hard when those we love can't see the truth and so great when they can!

fascicle re "Surgery is not a perfect solution. On these threads, trans people can't win. They are criticised for having surgery (you can't change biology argument) and criticised for not having surgery (lack of commitment/intent argument)."

I (and I expect many people here) have not criticised adult people for wanting surgery. If this is what they chose it is their choice and likewise if they don't chose it, that is fine too.

If someone has a problem with their biological sex, to the extent they do not want their penis that is fine, and I would want such people to have support. Post op they would be a transexual woman.

I would also want really good counselling to make sure it is really what they want. I read about one 'ex-trans woman', or 'de-transitioning trans women', who realised how bad it was not to be able to go out at night alone even for a walk. They realised they had bought into something that was maybe not as good as they expected.

Likewise trans men can realise that this is not right for them. here is the objective counselling beforehand? This is from the USA as is my example above of a trans women.

4thwavenow.com/2016/04/27/shrinking-to-survive-a-former-trans-man-reports-on-life-inside-queer-youth-culture/comment-page-1/#comment-11352

Sorry where is the objective counselling beforehand?

I would be happy (IMHO) for transexual women to use females spaces, up to a point. My point would be I would still not want transexual women to be counsellors in a rape crisis centre - or rather I would hope some rape crisis centres would be exclusively for women born women, some facilities would also be available for trans women, some for trans men, and some for men too, of course. Some of these groups might share spaces, but only by agreement.

This article explains how one trans woman petitioned for years to volunteer in a rape crisis centre, despite this being not what was wanted.

thetyee.ca/News/2007/02/03/Nixon/

When talking of post op trans women it is important to remember Lweji that according to a long tern Swedish study ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

trans women have the same criminiality as males and trans men have the same criminality as males. So a trans woman, even if post op might still be a threat to women and girls, and so for this reason I don't want their past buried or forgotten. I would be very concerned for people who are now transsexual and think that means they have a right to be in female prisons even if their previous crimes were against women.

Just for the record, I was totally a trans ally until all this stuff started happening. I can still remember the day a trans woman told me 'a trans woman is a woman.' and I thought hang on, that's just not true. I still am a trans ally, by the way, but not to the extend that I am willing for women and girls to suffer for this.

Italiangreyhound , that blog post from Max is very scary. In my teens some of my friends had a thankfully brief but still scary encounter with a cult and that post reminds me of some of their experiences with all the gaslighting mindfuckery and power games.

That article by Max is awesome. What unbelievable insight - I'm quite blown away.

That is a true well written and insightful article but also very sad. The sheer entitled headfuckery of men thinking coercing lesbians into having sex with them is a moral crusade is just mind boggling. That they not only, allegedly; perpetrate rapes but then use the threat of labelling the victims as bigots to silence them. It is horrible.

I still boggle at fighting a rape crisis centre for 12 years, 12 YEARS, when your "help" is not wanted . What kind of appalling person does that, in order to validate their "womanhood"?

That was a very interesting link to the Kimberly Nixon [the transgender would be volunteer at Rape Crisis] case in Canada, Italian. It's significant that "she" had left a position as a volunteer at another women's organisation because she wanted to take on Rape Crisis's women only policy specifically to validate her "female" identity.

I really like this quote:

Boyle points out that the decision on this case upholds the right of groups to fight the discrimination they feel, in the manner they see fit, without being expected to take on the burden of other disadvantaged groups.

"It's saying that just because someone has arthritis which is a disadvantage it doesn't give her the right to go to a group organized around helping people who, for example, might need wheelchairs. She can't insist they address her problem too."

I also think it's very interesting that when the original tribunal found in favour of the transwoman (fortunately subsequently overruled), they referred the Rape Crisis collective for "sensitivity training".

That reminds me of the Home Office official who tried to raise concerns about grooming gangs made up of Muslim men targeting white girls in Rotherham back in 2002 - the result of which was for her files to be stolen by the council and for her to be booked onto a racism and diversity awareness course. And the result of that of course was that many, many more vulnerable girls suffered horrific abuse for years and years before anyone finally acknowledged what was happening.

Misogyny always seems to be ignored when it's carried out by members of a minority group.

Yes indeed, Hermione, what kind of person does that - imagine how much was diverted away from rape survivors in terms of resources, energy, time taken up fighting that case?

Btw, no worries about the HP spoiler, was just trying to preempt any further ones! and I had actually already picked up from the world at large that Hermione ends up with Ron - although I did read that JK Rowling said recently that it was a fudge and she should have ended up with Harry really!

Harry is a bit of a prat imo. Ron is the better man. And Hermione never gets the credit she deserves. I am glad she ends up in the Weasley family.

I don't think Harry and Hermione should have got together - I think it works beautifully with them as friends. I'm not convinced the Ron/Hermione relationship would stay the distance though....but actually I know lots of women who have married beneath them and it's been ok (as they quietly die inside and temper their own fabulousness so as not to outshine their husbands)