Trans people to be JAILED in Alabama town if they go to "the wrong toilet"

[katmanwho]

Unbelievable. There has been a lot of hate recently in North Carolina with the bathroom bill. But this has got a lot worse. [ www.al.com/news/anniston-gadsden/index.ssf/2016/04/oxford_passes_law_aimed_at_tar.html]

So a transwoman will have to go the male bathroom. A transman in the female one. There's been cases of butch women being hassled already in female toilets.

Oh - and if you're in North Carolina and witness someone who you think is in the wrong bathroom, you can call the hotline.

Meanwhile, a convicted sex offender (who is also Ex Republican House Speaker) is allowed to go the male bathroom with boys.

The only good thing about this bill is that it's made people react to the discrimination and to show that many people think this is discrimination. Just like in the 60s. Apparently trans people are sexual deviants.

This is the real effect of hate.

Brilliant post talking

Hold my hand? I've just challenged the RightThink on a forum I've been on for years which has been passionately demanding why people are so stupid to have a problem with the bathroom bill. I mentioned the risks to women losing women only spaces.

I think I'm probably about to be lynched. And lose friends.

Here with a hand hold rumbling-

Remember how many of us started as vocal trans allies who would have instinctively fought for TW access to women's spaces. We have been persuaded to change our views by facts and logic.

And asking if they want to share hospital wards, changing rooms, showers etc with Davina I always find helpful in illustrating the problem.

Thanks Hermione. I was trying to explain I hate nobody - I just see risks here for women and that self determination is open to abuse, while removing women's only spaces has its own problems.

I suspect it will be seen as anti trans hatred

Amazing post, talking.

I just wish there wasn't a need for someone to have to state what should be blindingly obvious

Ooh thank you Hermione!

It's about a year now since I first found out what was going on with a new and very creative way to trample all over women trans rights and I'm still trying to process how it's all come about.

I think we really do have to ask the question that WDNS asked about when was it decided - or maybe WHO decided that gender identity was a real thing, more real and important in fact than biological sex. On whose authority was this decided? Why is it being accepted as a fact, as a truth, over and above biological realities and the reality of male oppression of women? Who said this is the way it is?

I think these are the questions we need to be asking our MPs and so on because of we don't challenge these assumptions at the core, they always just reset to the default position of "we are committed to equality for all women blah blah" without thinking about what that really means and how and why they have come to think that way.

rumblingD I'm so sorry, I'll hold your hand.

It's horrible, isn't it. I found out recently one of my friends is a fully paid up trans bot, and that was really hard, I'm not sure if the friendship will survive tbh; even worse my lovely baby niece (mid twenties actually!) is one too, she's one of the new breed of feminists that have been brainwashed like this. Very painful when you see what a number these people have done on women and girls, especially when it's someone you love.

I get the impression though that a lot of people aren't aware that transgender people believe there is such thing as female penises, I think people mistakenly believe reassignment surgery, and desire for it, is the norm

I'll also be here to hand hold rumbling

I agree with everything you said Talking that's exactly it, isn't it?
It really is the most amazing sleight of hand, isn't it?
It's being done in plain sight, and not only are people not seeing it, they're defending it

Hermione yes it is very reassuring to see on these threads how many women who were previously vocal trans allies have changed their minds about it all as a result of the debate. There is hope that logic and reason can prevail!

And no, I don't hate anybody either (although tbh I don't feel particularly warmly to anyone who makes death and rape threats to women) - I have always been pro equality and pro inclusion in a general sense and I really don't want to be lumped in with the true bigots who hate anyone who's different from them, or the bullies who take pleasure in belittling those who don't fit in for whatever reason. I've been on the receiving end of quite enough of that myself to want to inflict it on anyone else.

I think this is one of the things that's so vile - when your natural tendency is to be on the side of the vulnerable, of those who risk being exploited, to suddenly be cast in the role of the oppressor and called a bigot when all you're doing is what you've always done but suddenly the goal posts have all shifted... It's a bit shit!

WDNS yy I think that misconception about the surgery aspect (or lack of it) is indeed rife, I know I was shocked when I first heard the stats.

And yy - people are defending the dynamic of male bodied people taking away rights from female bodied people. It is indeed

Oh dear, once I get started talking about this, I find it very difficult to stop! Glad to know there are other like minds out there though, given what the current climate is like.

rumbling

My DD was initially in the trans activist camp. She has several trans friends and just assumed it was all one big happy family. She even called me a terf once ; it hurt even more because I'd raised her as a feminist.

But now she's read about Stefoknee and Davina and others and she is angry that her trans friends are being tarred with the same brush. So there is hope.

WeDoNotSow
It really is the most amazing sleight of hand, isn't it?
It's being done in plain sight, and not only are people not seeing it, they're defending it

I don't think there is anything to see. There are people who disagree that there is anything sinister going on.

TalkingintheDark
WDNS yy I think that misconception about the surgery aspect (or lack of it) is indeed rife, I know I was shocked when I first heard the stats.

Surgery is not a perfect solution. On these threads, trans people can't win. They are criticised for having surgery (you can't change biology argument) and criticised for not having surgery (lack of commitment/intent argument).

No, fascicle, trans people can't win because they are the biggest victims, the most oppressed group of any people anywhere at any time, yeah right, does that feel better now?

My emotionally abusive mother used to pull that shit about "not being able to win" when I called her on her behaviour and explained exactly why it was abusive; it's code for "I'm going to deflect the fact I'm refusing to listen to anything you're saying onto making this about you being mean to me because I'm the real victim here even though it's actually me being abusive to you" - it's a common trait in all self-absorbed narcissists whatever their sex or gender identity.

Nobody's criticising trans people for having surgery, fascicle. They're saying that surgery can't actually make a man into a woman.

And nobody is criticising trans people for not having surgery either. They're saying that there's no such thing as a "lady-penis," and that many liberal feminists who embrace the "trans women are women" fallacy don't realise that the vast majority of MTTs have not and will no undergo any kind of surgery and many would prefer to redefine what "women's biology" means as being inclusive of cocks and balls.

Nobody's saying "you have no right to change your body if you choose to." They are saying "Reality is still reality for the rest of us."

Oh and by the way, the way for trans people to "win" is to start recognising that women are oppressed because of our biology not our gender identity and that as such we are different and have different needs; to start realising that respect needs to go two ways - to be like the wonderful Miranda Yardley, in fact, a transwoman who totally nails it:

Gender Apostates this is what trans people "winning" (ie getting it) looks like.

What's wrong with saying a man as in someone born a man goes to the male toilets, and a woman as in someone born a woman goes to the female toilets? I don't buy into this stuff about having a secret gender identity beneath what you were born as, although I do know I'm probably in a minority with that opinion.

Thank you, you're a lovely bunch

In the shocked silence following my post, one friend has approached off list with a cautious 'well its interesting to hear all views' but another who had previously stayed very quiet has posted to say she agrees with every word.... I'm quite surprised.

This particular group are very nice people, very inclusive and well intentioned and I think much like your daughter Rhonda - they apply this to their trans friends and don't realise that there are men who will abuse this.

Amazing post by talking in the dark.

Thanks for articulating that so much more clearly than me, Aoibhe! Someone being deliberately obtuse and missing the point like that presses all my buttons...

rumbling good to hear you're not as isolated in the group as you feared. And well done for speaking out in the first place - as Dumbledore says in Harry Potter, it takes courage to stand up to your enemies, but more to stand up to your friends! (Am currently reading HP with DS, makes me think of you Hermione )

From that amazing blog piece
gender itself is oppression

Very much this.

By making this all about gender it increases opression. Claiming women's brains are different is millimeters away from different and not as good.

My dd is unhappy and sometimes want to be a boy. But when questioned it is because she wants to be allowed to do what boys do. Run, shout loudly, play football, wear 'boys'clothes because she like wolves and motorbikes and star wars more than flowers and glitter . I tell her if she wants to do those tjings fo those thimgs and if anyone tells her she cannot because she is a girl then they can f off. She is a girl. She is happy being a girl. She genuinely is unhappy about gender. It is stupid ideas about gender that need to change not my dd. although it would be quite nice if she shouted a teeny bit less

She may also have been influenced by having a bullying father and thinks that if you are a man you get your own way and it would be nicer to be the bully than the bullied.

Oh yes boopsy - Miranda gets so much shit on Twitter for standing up for women.

talking my namesake is a fucking boss witch - Ron and Harry wouldn't last 5 minutes without her. Particularly in book 7 - they'd have been killed at thr wedding if she didn't have a plan.

Also from the same site, under 'related', 'The Trojan horse of Transgender Identity Politics' This jumped out at me: If the transgender identity is so fragile that for validation it must coercively redefine what it is to be a woman and monopolise feminist debate, then it is the ideology that has to change, not women

WDNS makes you want to whoop when you read that, doesn't it!

Hermione AAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHH no spoilers please!!! We've only just finished the the third one

But yes, she is indeed a boss witch