Trans people to be JAILED in Alabama town if they go to "the wrong toilet"

[katmanwho]

Unbelievable. There has been a lot of hate recently in North Carolina with the bathroom bill. But this has got a lot worse. [ www.al.com/news/anniston-gadsden/index.ssf/2016/04/oxford_passes_law_aimed_at_tar.html]

So a transwoman will have to go the male bathroom. A transman in the female one. There's been cases of butch women being hassled already in female toilets.

Oh - and if you're in North Carolina and witness someone who you think is in the wrong bathroom, you can call the hotline.

Meanwhile, a convicted sex offender (who is also Ex Republican House Speaker) is allowed to go the male bathroom with boys.

The only good thing about this bill is that it's made people react to the discrimination and to show that many people think this is discrimination. Just like in the 60s. Apparently trans people are sexual deviants.

This is the real effect of hate.

OddBoots a snort of derision would work well! I think I'd be tempted to spell it out, "I said L-e-s-b-i-a-n not man!"

Alisvolatpropiis "Has a blokes voice though." True! I was talking to dd and I mentioned men who dressed as women. She said she would know. hat day Caitlyn came on telly talking about whatever and dd said, "Is that a man or a woman?" then quickly said "I know it's a man."

You can't fool children, usually.

Pinkey feel a bit obessed myself! re-written my letter to maria f-ing miller (must stop swearing) and Caroline D about 10 times!

"In a room full of women, a man on his own would be delighted. In a room full of men, a woman on her own would feel scared."

Where can I find that meme? That is so true!!! Well, I should say in some situations I would feel OK, in some I would feel wary or even scared.

The only Jacuzzi I've been in are big family ones and then I am OK in them.

BigChocFrenzy yes, that.... "Remember: Men commit the VAST majority of serious crime"

Totally agree "We shouldn't give up the protection of safe spaces just because they don't offer 100% protection against all kinds of violence.
I take precautions against various diseases, financial disasters etc which reduce, but don't eliminate, risk."

MissMargie you have an interesting take on this.. "... it must be hard (hard to imagine how hard) to tell your DCs that you, after being Dad for all their lives are now Mum2, or to tell your DW or DH or to tell anyone that you are changing sex."

How about being a child whose dad is no longer dad, or a women whose husband wants to now be a wife? Must be hard too? The man, or woman, who wants to transition has had a long time to get used to the idea. The kids or family are suddenly thrown into this.

Re " And their reaction might be good/bad/indifferent but if it affects their lives you could feel guilt for being the cause of that."

I would imagine very few families would feel indifferent.

Re "I accept they might be very happy that you are now a happy rather than sad individual. But on the whole it must take them a long time to adjust to the new you.
And perhaps it is that which adds to the risk of suicide rather than the whole of society's behavior."

I am afraid you are putting a lot of responsibility onto wives (husbands) and children (and I think it is usually wives) to be accepting. The idea that the family may be responsible if the person transitioning is not happy and ends up threatening or committing suicide. Sorry but is utterly unfair.

Re "Making changing sex more acceptable and getting everyone used to that idea is the way to go." Or rather pathologising people and giving them a life time of drug use. I would suggest this is only for those who have no other option. And because, sadly, we cannot talk openly about this topic, very easily at all, there are no other options for trans people.

Here you go Italian - although I appear to have paraphrased a bit!

What if anything would stop someone setting up a refuge for 'AFAB' people? Could it actually be forbidden? What about a political party? I mean just for the sake of argument (obviously I'd rather keep the word 'woman').

'AFAB' is part of the vocabulary of some transactivists, that's what made me wonder.

MissMargie, I hope you don't really mean any of the words you have written. I cried myself to sleep last night reading your words.

"The reason for high suicide rate is given as transphobic behavior by the rest of society but it must be hard (hard to imagine how hard) to tell your DCs that you, after being Dad for all their lives are now Mum2, or to tell your DW or DH or to tell anyone that you are changing sex. And their reaction might be good/bad/indifferent but if it affects their lives you could feel guilt for being the cause of that.
I accept they might be very happy that you are now a happy rather than sad individual. But on the whole it must take them a long time to adjust to the new you."

MissMargie, I can assure you the reaction of the children and spouses is not indifferent. Let's say, the day the father of my children, after 20 years of marriage, decided suddenly he was a woman was the day OUR lives changed. Imagine your father or husband has just had a serious accident and is died immediately. That is how it feels for us. Even worse, there is no funeral, there is no-one there to offer their words or time to comfort us. Nothing. Just a complete void. He just disappears and never comes back. Then it just gets worse. You discover £35 grand has been stolen from the children's accounts to fuel his ADDICTION to himself (that is exactly what it is like, an addiction to self). Then you have to pick up your lives with no money, you have to become 2 parents as 1 is gone.

MissMargie, your words forget entirely the feelings of those left behind. Your words make no mention of the guilt felt by us left behind. Your words make no mention of suicide rates amongst the children and wives left behind. In fact, there has been some research into OUR suicide rates and the stats look bad.

MissMargie, it is hard to find you've been lied to for 20 years. It is bad enoug to be abandoned, to suffer the unexplicable physical violence, the emotional and financial abuse of a man who (you'd think he'd know himself after 40 years) suddenly decides he is not a man and runs off to join the other men who think the same way.

MissMargie, there are 2 sides to every story.

I'm so sorry, lifeisunjust.
That sounds like a complete nightmare.

My story is not unusual, it is the NORM for the families of middle aged men who go through their mid life crises. We are not exceptional. We are the silent victims.

life

lifeisunjust and Italiangreyhound sorry to have hit such a raw nerve. I was generalizing and giving a point of view, as far as I can see the suicide rates are used as an argument for producing legislation that gives more rights to transgendered people. I was wanting to say that this might not produce the drop in suicide rates they expect.

I didn't mean to dismiss the impact transgendering has on their families.

But I think your posts are the first I have read from family members directly affected by someone in their family changing. I can only sympathise with your ordeal.

Italiangreyhound The idea that the family may be responsible if the person transitioning is not happy and ends up threatening or committing suicide. Sorry but is utterly unfair

What I was trying to say was that the transgendered person might feel guilt that they had caused unhappiness in their children, parents, siblings and that might contribute to their suicide risk. Not the other way round. Sorry if it read that way.
And therefore changing laws affecting society won't fix this.

So sorry, life
All this twittery / twattery to avoid offending some transfolk has completely overlooked the discarded, or even abused, families.
Men abandoning their families again - hooray, they've found a way to receive public praise and sympathy for it

I'm an occasional naturist and go to naturist spas in Germany or Scandinavia.
Men & women of all ages, shapes & sizes sit naked together in huge saunas, or wander outside naked.

The spas I've visited always have separate changing rooms & toilets.
There are also certain areas of the place where everyone is required to cover their genitals.
Even with a total lack of embarassment about nudity, the 2 sexes still want privacy for certain biological functions defined by the genitals and for undressing.
They are commercial establishments, so would certainly change this if customers wished.

The naturist areas in the spas are all big spaces with lots of people around, who have paid an entrance fee and agreed to the terms and conditions. So, not completely random blokes off the street.

There are staff (in shorts & shirt) who monitor behaviour with eagle eyes, e.g. sitting anywhere without a towel underneath.
So, women, who choose to go, feel safe.
However, most women - and men - wouldn't wish to participate in naturism, to be with unfamiliar naked people of the opposite sex. That's their right. That's not them being silly.

MissMargie thank you the 'sorry to have hit such a raw nerve', you did not for me personally. I have heard lifeisunjust and others like her speak and I am aware (to a tiny fraction of a degree) of the misery felt by families who go through this. The idea that someone who is dad can re-appear as mum2 is just highly, highly simplistic. It may well be possible for some MTT people to re-build lives and relationships with their kids but I very much doubt if they are ever looked upon as mum2. And where there is additional abuse, financial, physical or whatever, it must be very hard to ever move beyond it or for families ever to want to.

I do agree with that “And therefore changing laws affecting society won't fix this.”

BigChocFrenzy Sorry to be nosy but where are the areas “where everyone is required to cover their genitals.” (where are the places not what are the areas!)

I'm not looking for anyone to feel sorry for me really, just to make well meaning people open their eyes that whilst the media fills you with sympathy for these men who "feel like women and therefore must be women", behind their stories is often families whose lives have been torn apart due to the narcissism of the trans man.

As for any claims that have gender reassignment (no SEX change is not possible, sex remains) will improve these men's lives, well for some for sure it does, for some it doesn't, this study, the only big one around, concludes that suicide rates post op are unchanged from pre op. So anyone thinking it helps to spend public money on these men (whilst of course offering no counselling services of the family members abandoned), might think a bit deeper and realize gender reassignment is not a quick fix.
journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

I don't believe the crap about men with women's brains and neither does any Scientist with a track record, Science tells us otherwise. I believe this is no more than a sub group of body dysmorphia and the biggest disservice is being done to those children currently being dressed up as girls (yes overwhelmingly boys wanting to be girls) who seem to allow and perhaps even reinforce pathetic gender stereotypes of pink, hair, clothes and make-up. It is wrong. I find it homophobic. I find it when I watch some of the videos available on youtube nothing but child abuse.

Just to give a different perspective, my friend has anorexia, she has self harmed and attempted to committed suicide. I would be heart-broken to think that I had contributed to her need to attempt suicide by not seeing her as the fat person she sees herself as. I have tried to be a friend to her and support her; I would not be able to collude in her views on herself. I have also suffered OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) and I am aware when a partner colludes with the illness, allowing the person to believe their ‘little rituals'/complete obsessions are indeed OK or necessary, it is just conspiring in hell, it is unhelpful to say the least.

By all this I mean if a man needs other family members to conspire to believe he is a woman, or he may commit suicide, well that is a massive burden to place on a family or on society.

Men can indeed wear 'women''s clothing, although I do not generally wear some of the outfits I've seen trans women in, and if a male undergoes surgery and hormone treatment (as many do not) they can transform their body, in some circumstances into a body that can look somewhat female or perhaps very female. This is reality. To deny this is unhelpful and for MTT to think they will magically became female may well contribute to the fact that when this does not happen, those people may feel very desperate indeed.

Trans women, who I have always accepted as that - trans women, will now say, a trans woman is a woman. This is not so, and never has been. But we are now all being expected to collude in this.

Very young people who feel/identify/discover/decide that they are trans, and who follow that route, and learn to love themselves exactly as they are, may well have the best options in the future, however, they choose to present their bodies IMHO. I know someone posted on this, that acceptance of self does give best outcomes even after treatment. I wonder if anyone can link to success for trans gender people. I know it is not all doom and gloom I have spoken to trans people who seem more accepting of themselves than others and that must be a great start.

I would like to be able to be loving of and accepting of trans people without needing to say, you are female, when the person is male or vice versa. I rarely need in my life to confirm I am female or expect anyone to confirm it for me. And in all but medical and privacy and safety matters I don't really expect any different treatment to males.

Do many men 'come out' at a separate specific time in life (like a mid life crisis) and do many females 'come out' at a specific time in life, e.g. puberty. That 'feels' like a thing. Are there any stats on it?

If this is the case it suggests to me that actually there might be specific things/condition going on, quite different from other people who might know earlier in life. But because it is a situation where people self identify, and people might say they have always felt like this, all trans people might say that, yet they come out at different points in life, so it’s hard to gauge. Others who say they always felt like this chose not to marry and have kids, chose to transition or try to transition earlier, while some men wait until they are 40 or 50 or even 60. Why are some trans people identifying later in life? Is it really a different thing from a young trans kid who identifies early? Or the same? Just curious if anyone knows.

PS these are my musings, I have read a lot but have no stat and no one in my family is trans so this is not based on personal experience.

I don't think it's only transgender people who have issues with accepting/ being happy with themselves.

That's it exactly. I am very uncomfortable with being asked to collude with something I don't believe is true - that this man is now a woman, end of, he is, say it and be believable or you're an evil, bad person.

No, they're a transwoman. That's great. I'm delighted for people to dress and present themselves however they want, gender stereotypes are a lot of rubbish.

But where is the line? There will have to be lines. I'm emphatically not ok with Stephonknee aping some stereotypical image of six year old little girl while engaging in anal sex with her 'daddy' as a public lifestyle and expecting acceptance as she's expressing her inner self. I will not validate that. As Life says - and I am so sorry Life - there is something extremely self obsessive about this.

Italian I hope I understood your question about covering up in naturist spas:

• In sport, table tennis, weighlifting etc to avoid smashing or squashing your bits

• Around food, whether restaurant or buffet - noone wants a stranger's pubic hairs in their food and hair does travel.
  And of course leaning over a buffet or carrying food - a much higher yuk factor than just accidentally getting your thumb in soemone else's food or communal dishes in the buffet.

Even where there is no buffet, I've never seen nude eating in a spa.

At a nude beach however, the rule is you can NOT cover genitals - staff would notice and request you to strip or go to the clothed area if you want to do this. Socks & a hat are fine though

Bigchocfrenzy that all makes perfect sense. No one wants those squashed genitals near their food!

MissMargie can you give examples? I know people don't always feel comfortable in themselves and sometimes they may want help from others but normally that help does not involved misrepresenting reality. What is curious is that some people are very happy to believe (so i am told) that a trans woman is a woman. So I guess for them that is not misrepresenting reality! But if we were to look for some evidence outside of the opinions of others we would be back with science and biology.

It is just my personal opinion but very young children who identify as trans early and do fully transition may indeed feel that they are female. Will they suffer sadness at being infertile. Would knowing that they could never have been fertile as women help them feel better? But again we are talking about people who transition, who change their body by surgery and take drugs and present as female. Many trans women do not have this type of surgery. Some do nothing at all to really transition except by identifying as female.

And again we always find ourselves talking about trans women. What about trans men. I wonder if some feel a sense of difficulty that they cannot turn themselves into the famous examples of trans men who are very much like males in appearance.

I'm delighted for people to dress and present themselves however they want, gender stereotypes are a lot of rubbish.

This.

I'm delighted for people to dress and present themselves however they want, gender stereotypes are a lot of rubbish.

I also agree.

Quite a lot of confusion, IMO, is probably due to maintenance (and possibly increase) of gender stereotypes (at least in terms of appearance) together with more openness in terms of sex/gender change. In fact, more accepting than of escaping gender stereotypes Possibly also in terms of women being more accepted as equals; in that it's not as limiting as before presenting as a "woman" if you are a man.

I am curious, though, if female to males are accepted as males among men as males to females are supposed to be accepted as female among women.

And maintenance of gender stereotypes among professionals involved in sex changes. Happy to be corrected, but my impression at least in the past is that transsexuals are/were forced into stereotypes to be accepted for surgery.

Oh life I feel so angry for you. It's refreshing to hear the other side of the story and I wish people would think before they applauded men for their 'bravery'

I'm really pleased we can have these discussions, there are some excellent points on this thread which I will be saving next time I get into a debate with a deluded TA.