Very sad article about porn and how it affects relationships for young women

[Italiangreyhound]

Interesting and deeply saddening article about porn and how it affects relationships for young women.

fightthenewdrug.org/sex-before-kissing-15-year-old-girls-dealing-with-boys/

dependadultundergarment shit that is terrible, your first post.

imwithspud re "So depressing. I have two dd's. They're very young so this sort of talk is a long way off yet, but I dread what the 'porn culture' will be like by the time they're teenagers. I plan to educate and be as open as possible, but ultimately I feel powerless."

PLEASE do not feel powerless, do not pass on to your daughters the idea that they are powerless. We MUST educate our next generation of young people, girls and boys that this is not what sex is about.

Vaginal to anal sex is dangerous for passing on infections and worse!

Rough sex without consent is not sex, it is abuse.

We must convey this to our young people.

I am happy to re-post this but anyone can repost or put on their Faccebook page. I know I am preaching to the converted but every little bit of extra knowledge passed on might help.

scandichick re "So how do you tackle this at the source? I don't see the availability of porn changing soon, so the only thing I can see that would make a difference is limiting how much porn teenage boys consume, and educate them on the difference between porn and reality. What else can you do?"

I think it would be helpful to share ideas of how we could change this.

I think openness and honesty is important for our girls and our boys. I think it would help for young women and men to know that this is not reality, it is not empowering for women and for women to avoid men who consume porn. Do you know one of the things that changed Chinese foot binding practices, families said that they would not allow their son's to marry women whose feet had been bound. Knowing that men or boys are avid porn users would be a major turn off for me and I think (IMHO) it should be for any woman.

I can't believe woman are expected to put up with this shit. If women challenged men more on their crap behaviour and as someone else said, just avoid the shit heads then hopefully they won't be spreading their bizarre views on sex. Yes, I know that is simplistic. But I think more and more women and men should be standing up and saying 'No' to porn. I am worried young women (and maybe older women) are so conditioned that they must have a man and must put up with whatever the man wants.

Totally agree with BertrandRussell post at Fri 08-Apr-16 14:32:55

grimbletart Re "The sentence that made me the most angry was the one from a girl who said how can she refuse "without hurting his feelings". Poor little male lamb. Why the hell does she have to worry about the feelings of every porn-fed male?" yes 100 percent. But "I feel so let down by these porn-using males and TBH I feel just as let down by girls who worry about hurting boys' feelings."

I can't blame the girls too much, we (society) have brought our girls (and sometimes our boys) up to be polite and to do the right thing and to not hurt people's feelings. This is all fine and good but we need to instil in them self preservation. I guess also we can't just tell them what to say, because each situation will change and differ. So what we need to say to our girls and boys is they are so precious and valuable that they need to be in control of their precious bodies and not be pressured by videos/internet/magazine or whatever and coerced into doing anything they are not happy with. This means we need to instil in them an internal beromitor that helps them know their own mind.This will mean they are probably harder to order around and control at home (my dd is very sure of her own mind and has never been someone I could boss around).

scallopsrgreat re "I think these conversations are way more important than conversations with girls." I think we need to talk to both girls and boys, to encourage them to think for themselves and to find their voice for good. Girls can't just be put aside and looked after', they need to be active in making the changes in our society, IMHO.

i also think we can influence the culture generally. Was well pissed off to watch tonight on The Big Bang Theory that one character was being pressursied into wearing a Catholic girl's school uniform (to delight her husband!). This is a mainstream programme, why the fuck is it encouraging us to think it is normal for men to want to have sex with women in girl's school uniforms! I have just written to Channel 4 (left out the word fuck!)

Aveiam, I am very, very sorry to hear this. Have you had any counselling. Please do seek out a suitable counsellor, your GP may be able to refer on the NHS. Please tell your GP you need more than medication, you need talking therapies to work through this, talking therapies work well with medication and help people move on. I suffered from anxiety and until very recently I had an eating disorder (in fact I am kind of in recovery from it) and I have found therapy very helpful. It can be difficult, of course, but it may help you move on from your past.

Please find someone who can help you, maybe someone who can work with you on Penny Park Inner Child Therapy.

The relationships you describe before you were 16 are abusive. You said "One boy sat his dog outside the door and forced me to have sex with him or he would set the dog on me. One boy brought 3 of his friends with him and told me I had to have sex with all of them. " These are highly abusive situations.

You are worth so much more. Please get some help to deal with what has happened to you in the past.

Mishaps re "This is the crux of the problem - that women allow this to happen and do not tell the guy to hop on his bike and cycle off into the sunset. I can understand young girls not knowing how to deal with it - and yes that is where education comes in - but grown adult women - what can they be thinking of?" What an utterly stupid thing to say! IMHO!

The crux of the problem is boys and men feeling entitled to abuse and coerce women, and if this has happened to a person a lot as a young women what makes you think she would suddenly have the strength or courage to push back against such behaviour. It is obvious from the article and people's personal experiences that women are (and to some degree always have been) socialised to believe that this is normal - that men have fun and women put up with it - don;t you remember all those lie back and think of England jokes!

LilacSpunkMonkey people who make comments about women working in porn because they love sex are mansplaining, plain and simple. Just because some faceless folks on mumsnet say it, don't assume it is what people really think.

think the best comment from that thread was something like... saying women who work in porn do it because they love sex is like saying someone who loves cooking would like cooking in a frying pan on a one ring greasy stove while someone shouts at them... or words to that affect.

Aveiam I am so sorry this happened to you.

I know someone whose son was also targeted by this kind of online abuse.

I really hope it is all over now and you are able to move on, Aveiam.

Aveiam if you find it hard to think of your parents letting you down, maybe you could just express it that you were let down - you were and are worth so much more.

I posted above about counselling, might that help you?

I am sorry I am posting so much. I started the thread but did not come back to it for about 24 hours (been at work) and there are so many comments I want to post!

The culture of nude pics and nude selfies is so wrong. i don't much like the disrespect nobody campaign very much but some are better than others, the bra one saying 'what a tit' is good.

This video is good for internet danger video - It's a bit disturbing/maybe triggering. If you have experienced abusive relationships, please be careful, I fount it quite upsetting but it has a good ending.

I've posted this before but I think it is very good - Pressure Pic Problem - Boyfriend's Story - That's Not Cool - Apple trying to get orange to send nude pics

This one is quite creepy….

I do feel so angry when adult women posting photos of themselves, nude selfies. We need to make our young women feel proud of their bodies but discerning about who gets to see them.

I am a Christian, if there are other Christians out there you may want to explore this organisation..... I don;t necessarily agree with everything they say or think, and they are coming from a specific Christian position but they may be of interest to some.

www.romanceacademy.org/

VestalVirgin I am very sorry to hear about what happened to you.

But VestalVirgin you asked "Why DO girls do it?" What is the 'it' you are referring to? You have spoken yourself about getting into a situation, don; tyou think that has happened for others. They may re-write this in their heads as a consensual relationship because it feels better than to admit that their sexual experience was coercive, One girl has told us a boy said he would set his dog on her if she did not have sex with him, don't you see that coercive?

Re "If you're in love as a teenager, is the need to be loved back so great that you endure such humiliations?" I am guessing it does not start out as humiliation for some, it starts out as a relationship with love/gifts/time and attention and then when it comes to coercing into sex it might be couched in the language of 'but if you love me you would do XYZ... or everyone is doing XYZ... so I agree with you, it is 'the "frog in boiling water" factor'.

Or maybe it is just plain old abuse from the start but presented in such a way that the woman/girl feels she has no choice.

Re "Of course we all want to be loved, but it's not really love if you have to have sex to get kisses, is it? I just don't understand where this desperation comes from, that will settle for a poor imitation of love and re-enact porn to pay for it."

Maybe people who have not had a good example of unconditional love modelled for them!

You have hit the nail on the head with "In the end, the only one to blame is the man who did it..."

Why are WE not asking how boys and men can bully and coercive girls and women into abusive sexual relationships! Isn't this a big part of it. WHY are the girls the gatekeepers of sexual morality.

I think it feels like girls are so dependent on boys because romantic relationships are presented as the be all and end all - on telly, or in music videos, or when we read a romance novel. That is why, it is all conditioning.

This is what we are taught from an early age. Those of us who are very shy (as I was) or very nerdy (as someone else mentioned) or perhaps very much loved in their family and given a very strong sense of their on self worth (partly very true for me too), or a very moral upbringing (again partly true for me) or perhaps very talented in some area that they are 'distracted' by boys, maybe those of us who fit into some of those categories miss out on some of this (thank God).

One of my friends lost her mum young, she had to grow up fast at home and was emotionally very hurt by losing her mum. She was in a relationship at 14 with a man of about 20 plus, he gave her nude pics of himself long before the internet. She tired to fix me up with his mate, thank God (and I really do mean that) that I worked out in advance that the planned trip was just a chance for me to shag some bloke I had never met!

OK must go to bed, thank you all for engaging, I thought it would be old hat to so many. But it is good to talk about it here and elsewhere.

Thank you anyfucker for reposting in chat.

or perhaps very talented in some area so that they are not 'distracted' by boys...

Why DO girls do it?

If you're in love as a teenager, is the need to be loved back so great that you endure such humiliations?

Yes!

Is the porn so normalized that a demand to imitate it is seen as justified?

Yes again. When you're in the situation with a man it is hard to argue against because it seems so logical. The belief that ALL men watch porn and that sex is something you have to give in order to get love is depressingly common. It's even perpetuated on common TV shows and sitcoms, like Friends, where all the men watched it, even the sensitive ones, and it was just accepted as a way of life by the women.

I think it feels like girls are so dependent on boys because romantic relationships are presented as the be all and end all - on telly, or in music videos, or when we read a romance novel. That is why, it is all conditioning.

I really agree with this Italian. Action movies aimed at boys are primarily about adventure and the romance is incidental. Romantic movies aimed at girls are primarily about finding love, so placing a boy at the centre of it.

This always makes me feel old.

We had the same porn knocking about when I was younger (10 years ago). I had sex at aged 15. Yeah some lads would test the boundaries but it was always something they fantasised and hoped for not expected.

I'm not sure if those videos really address the issue. They are all about creepy older men pretending to be something they are not. Isn't this probem more about boys girls already know in real life?

I'm not sure if the one had which had the advice about privacy settings and only making photographs available to people you know is that helpful either. People you know does not mean people you can trust implicitly for ever.

I don't do social media at all (apart from a bare bones LinkedIn account work says I must have) so might not have got the hang of it but I'm not sure "keep your settings for privacy" is the right answer.

I would have thought don't post any post any pictures which are not of a nature where you can't shrug your shoulders and laugh if seen by the wrong person.

LassWiTheDelicateAir re "I'm not sure if those videos really address the issue. They are all about creepy older men pretending to be something they are not. Isn't this probem more about boys girls already know in real life?"

yes, sorry I got carried away, was looking for the sexting ones and ended up including them all, it is a different issue BUT I do think sexiting is part of it - exposing ones self for someone else's benefit.

I am really not sure what reaources are out there specifically about porn but someone mentioned Childline so I found these, I've not used these resources yet but just looked them up....

www.childline.org.uk/explore/onlinesafety/pages/online-porn.aspx

The following page is for young people aged 12 and over. Some of the language and types of things explained are not appropriate for younger children.

www.childline.org.uk/explore/onlinesafety/pages/fapz-fight-against-porn-zombies.aspx

Some great links there, IG

I hate the way being anti- porn is turned into being anti- sex. I suppose it's unfortunate that some organised groups who are anti- porn are also anti-sex that isn't between a married heterosexual couple.

I never said that girls shouldn't be active in these conversations, Italian. I also didn't say that we shouldn't have conversations with girls. But the problem is not with the girls behaviour. The problem is with boys behaviour. That's why the conversations with them are more important.

It's just that on the these threads the default stance is always we need to talk to girls to recognise the signs, not give into pressure; build their self esteem. The default is rarely, if ever, about needing to talk to boys to stop putting on the pressure, treat girls as fellow humans and lose their sense of entitlement.

LassWiTheDelicateAir re "I hate the way being anti- porn is turned into being anti- sex. I suppose it's unfortunate that some organised groups who are anti- porn are also anti-sex that isn't between a married heterosexual couple." I think this is red herring, you can be against one thing and for another, if one group is campaigning for something you don't approve of then you don't need to join them.

Please, anyone, are there any good campaigning groups against porn?

Any links, please?

scallopsrgreat re "I never said that girls shouldn't be active in these conversations, Italian. I also didn't say that we shouldn't have conversations with girls. But the problem is not with the girls behaviour. The problem is with boys behaviour. That's why the conversations with them are more important." I am not sure what this refers to. I am sorry if something I said did not reflect what you said, that was not my intention. I posted a lot last night and felt very emotional so i do apologise if I misrepresented you.

Re "It's just that on the these threads the default stance is always we need to talk to girls to recognise the signs, not give into pressure; build their self esteem. The default is rarely, if ever, about needing to talk to boys to stop putting on the pressure, treat girls as fellow humans and lose their sense of entitlement."

I think I must have misunderstood you somewhere because I totally agree with you, I think it is both men and women, boys and girls who need to know how to handle this stuff. I don;t think it is only a problem for one 'side'. I will look back and try and see what it was I said...

Agree with scallops, there needs to be more of a push this sorted with boys and their parents. 90% of parents on these threads talk about how worried they are for their DDs. Where's the concern for DSs? They are potentially going to end up as horrific sex pests at best. All conversations regarding sexism need to involve boys, there's not much point in trying to 'empower' girls if boys' behaviour continues as it is. Because that's a slippery slope to victim blaming, that the girls haven't done enough to deal with the boys if all the onus is on girls to respond well to a situation that is caused by boys' bad behaviour and attitudes.

OK, found it... scallopsrgreat re "I think these conversations are way more important than conversations with girls." I think we need to talk to both girls and boys, to encourage them to think for themselves and to find their voice for good. Girls can't just be put aside and looked after', they need to be active in making the changes in our society, IMHO.??

I simply meant that I think boys and girls need to be involved. Yes, if boys are the 'aggressor' we need to get them away from girls and this could take time and while it happens, while men are taught to not see women as meat, we need to prepare girls to also not see themselves as meat, IMHO.

I just don't think we can afford the time to talk to boys and try and get them to see reason without equipping girls - we need to tell them "Hey this doesn't mean he loves or likes you, cares or respects you, he is acting on impulses that have been damaged by porn. And damaged people do damage, so get away and make it clear this is not your thing."

I think if this happened enough boys would be forced to re-think BUT I absolutely do not want to put the onus on girls to be again the rescuers of the situation. Men have created this situation, greedy porn makers, they need to see their business go down the toilet by whatever means possible.

But you are entitled to any view and I am sorry if I stepped on your point.

Scallopsgrea re your other comment "I think these conversations are way more important than conversations with girls. We aren't going to change the dynamic until male entitlement and violence is addressed. That's the cause of the problem, not girl's reaction to that." YES I totally agree with you on that. I think we are saying very similar things I just picked up on your comment, wrongly, so apologies.

RiverTam yes, I agree, have found Scallopsgreat original comments and I do agree, I think I just took part of it out of context.

I just want to see both boys and girls involved but absolutely do not want to victim blame or lay the onus on the girls at all. So agree.

Meanwhile, over on AIBU, there'a a thread about an 11 year old girl on Instagram posting duckface selfies.

Towards the end if the thread there are posters referring it as 'tarty' and 'slutty'.

These are the people who need educating as much as the children. The type who think Adam Johnson's victim 'knew what she was doing'.

I know what a selfie is but what does duckface mean in this context.

Im obvs a bit out of touch here.

The OP was saying she'd deleted some pics from her daughter's Instagram account because her daughter was pouting (duckfacing) in them. Towards the end a real charmer turned up and started spouting about controlling your children and children having respect then went on to say some 11 year old look 'tarty' in their Instagram photos. Someone aged with her with a and, when challenged, the first poster said she used 'tarty' to be polite but she actually meant 'slutty'.

And this is grown women talking about children. I reported both posts and was told they didn't break talk guidelines! So that's HQ allowing sexualised talk about young girls. Really inspires confidence, doesn't it?

Oh my good God!

Yes Helena I had to Google it.

Idiotic/why would you do that/ bleh/ugh were what sprung to mind, but not tarty or slutty.

I'm not sure we are saying the same thing Italian. I feel you are saying equal emphasis on teaching boys and girls. I'm saying more emphasis on teaching boys. They should be the priority. That doesn't mean to say girls should or need to be passive in this. They can most certainly be involved in that - and should be.

"Idiotic/why would you do that/ bleh/ugh were what sprung to mind, but not tarty or slutty." That sentence seems to imply an 11 yr could be 'tarty' or 'slutty', just not in this instance. Really hoping that's not what you meant.

I don't think any woman is tarty or slutty. Those are words used to classify women according to behaviours which are deemed acceptable or otherwise by men/a patriarchal society.