Very sad article about porn and how it affects relationships for young women

[Italiangreyhound]

Interesting and deeply saddening article about porn and how it affects relationships for young women.

fightthenewdrug.org/sex-before-kissing-15-year-old-girls-dealing-with-boys/

Ave try not to beat yourself up. You have obviously come so far in making positive changes in your life.

You have compassion for your ex - that's not a bad thing as he is the one that is troubled.

Keep strong and don't look back.

IG I think the thread Lilac was referring to was linked in the porn thread in chat. I only glanced at it mind.

I'm not in a position to comment on that other thread in Chat - as much as I want to. To be honest I find it overwhelming. I'm pregnant and have become really tearful having read some of the posts but wanted to say well done for championing change.

It's odd, I now feel uncomfortable accepting 'soft' porn. Couples can enjoy it and it's supposedly harmless but it's not really, is it? To the woman or the man. It's really degrading, particularly this hardcore stuff people are mentioning.

Aveiam Re "I am scarred by it all. Very damaged in terms of how I view everything. Lots of sympathy with my ex, feel so bad that he is hurting. I know how warped that is."

I am so sorry you feel like this, I hope you are going to get stronger the more you are away from abusive relationships, I hope. It's OK to feel sympathy for your ex if you also feel sympathy for yourself and also realise that we all make choices. If he made choices to be abusive to you, even if he had a hard time of it too, that does not excuse his actions. What's happening with your counselling, are you having some now? There are many things that could help you, and you need assertiveness training as part of it. I hope in the long run you may be able to feel sympathy for him but also anger, righteous anger that he was abusive to you, because you do not and did not deserve that, honestly you are worth so much more, you are precious.

Peyia well, if you are asking me, "I now feel uncomfortable accepting 'soft' porn. Couples can enjoy it and it's supposedly harmless but it's not really, is it? To the woman or the man. It's really degrading, particularly this hardcore stuff people are mentioning" Yes, it is degrading, it is degrading for anyone to take off their clothes and engage in sexual activity for money, and if they are coerced into doing it, it is illegal and vile. If in the course of doing it they are made to do things that will physically and psychologically hurt them then it is evil.

If people want to engage in making genuinely artistic films or writing books or posing for erotica art style pictures that are not degrading and are entered into consensually, that is up to them. It's not my thing, but it's people's choice.

Porn is, by nature degrading, primarily to women (except for gay male porn of course) but also to men, and in my view it devalues all who watch it. So for me it is a complete no no. But not everyone will agree with me, which is fine. The key thing here is about consent and about the influence on young people.

Clearly soft porn is not as 'bad' as hard core porn in terms of physical damage but I guess it all acts to break down what people think of as normal or acceptable. It must by nature push people to go further physically then they would if the sex was part of a consensual and loving, committed relationship.

The key thing I think, Peyia , is to do what you can, not what you can't, It is upsetting. Take care of yourself. This thing has rumbled on for years. I just hope when your child is the age of my dd (11) you will not have to talk about this, and that hope makes me feel empowered!!

A combination of this thread, the one in chat (which will sadly vanish) and the documentary 'Abused:The untold story' I watched last night has left me feeling incredibly depressed and despairing for the next generation.

I've just asked my DS (16) 2 questions:
Is porn too freely available to young children? Yes
Is that porn having a damaging effect? Yes, definitely.
I also asked if he felt his perception of relationships had been damaged by things he had seen but he told me it was too early for such a deep conversation and he had revision to do.

I feel slightly less concerned about him but no part of that brief chat has made me feel that we, as a society, are doing enough to protect our young from an adult world where sex is currency and women's bodies are public property.

We live in a highly sexualised world where young girls are encouraged to present themselves in a certain way and are then degraded, belittled and derided for doing so...and that's the least of it.

Exactly unacceptable I was obvious to porn as it used to be underground. I wouldn't have minded knowing people use soft porn because there usually was a story line, so be it sexist. Bored housewife etc.

I'm disturbed at the sexual violence etc and how accessible it is.

Thanks GH - I was having an off day yesterday. Thanks for responding.

I just went to link the thread with the 'tarty' comments and the whole thread has now been deleted at the OP's request. It wasn't the OP who made the comments but two other posters.

Which means no one else can go onto that thread and report the 'tarty' comments to HQ.

Is it worth drawing their attention to this thread so they can see how people feel about using the words 'tarty' and 'slutty' when discussing 11 year old girls?

I think that's a good suggestion Lilac but unfortunately I'm a little cynical of reporting to MNHQ after not having a response to my last report on a very emotive subject where the conversation was turning nasty in my opinion.

I didn't even get a 'there there dear, calm down' reply. I do accept they must be inundated but felt somewhat let down that the tone of the thread was not corrected, especially when it can be deemed derogatory to some - I'm not talking about a disagreement, my skin is thicker than that!

So here goes - MNHQ, I am disgusted a thread where an 11 child is being referred to as a tart/slut by adults is allowed to stand after the posts were reported. Suggests to others that it is acceptable, when it is not.

Out of interest did MNHQ respond to your report Lilac?

I didn't see that thread. They are horrible words and I don't condone using them about Children or anyone.
But is it not part of the issue? Girls sexualising themselves, without really knowing what they are doing. Girls wanting to appear grown up and pretty, and part of the society we live in means there are no frames of reference for that that isn't about sexuality.
Girls are fed a narrative that they are equal to boys in all ways, but they know it's not true. They need approval and popularity. They start having sex themselves because of this need, rather than for their own desires.

'It's only sex, a phyiscal thing' is the mantra. It's plainly a lie. That lie totally erases the psychological, emotional ans even social aspects, different for everybody but there, for the most part. There is a massive cognitive dissonance running through all of society when you can use sex to sell shampoo and kitchen paper on daytime tv and then wonder why people get hurt. It's powerful or it's not.

I know porn=/= sex. But obviously, that's the draw

While we are talking about softcore porn ... I recently read this article:

www.antipornography.org/my-story-of-lesbian-porn-harms-and-why-its-fake.html

(There are images, censored ones, but it is very obvious what is going on. And no, I don't warn you because it is lesbian sex, I warn you because it is rape-y and degrading)

It didn't change my opinions because I think having sex with strangers for pay is degrading, no matter what, but if you believed that "lesbian" porn was free of violence ... well, it isn't. Not even when the violence is not visible.
(And the fact that most of the women in it aren't actually attracted to women in any way is pretty obvious if you think about it. There are hardly enough pretty young lesbians who want to be in porn to satisfy the demand for "lesbian" porn.)

I hear what you are saying 7Days, but we all know the meaning of tart/slut and my opinion is that these words should not be used to describe a child who doesn't fully understand what they do and how they act is overtly sexual. It is not their fault and should be encourage to be children.

There are so many external factors that make parenting difficult and we are seeing more and more children becoming sexualised at an early age but grown women calling a child a tart/slut is below the belt. Where is the line drawn?

I agree Paeyia. I suppose it's used as shorthand for 'presenting herself willingly as sex object, doing what society tells her to do and therefore deserves to be denigrated for it'. Horrible.

LilacSpunkMonkey Re "Is it worth drawing their attention to this thread so they can see how people feel about using the words 'tarty' and 'slutty' when discussing 11 year old girls?" Do you mean Mumsnet HQ?

I think so. There is a war on women and sadly women ourselves an be part of that because we are often willing to belittle and undermine our fellow-women, for being female. I think it is always worth saying these type of things. You never know who is listening!

7Days Re "Girls sexualising themselves, without really knowing what they are doing." Can you explain how they are sexualising themselves?

Re "Girls wanting to appear grown up and pretty, and part of the society we live in means there are no frames of reference for that that isn't about sexuality." i am not sure that is true, but it may appear so for some children who are not given any other frame of reference.

Re "Girls are fed a narrative that they are equal to boys in all ways, but they know it's not true." Do you really believe it is not true?

RE "They need approval and popularity. They start having sex themselves because of this need, rather than for their own desires." There have been lots of referenes on this and other threads to girls being pushed into sex, coerced into sex, threatened with violence if they do not have sex, how is that 'starting to have sex'.

I'm not wanting unpick what you are saying, I am trying to understand what you are saying.

Re "I know porn=/= sex. But obviously, that's the draw" I am not sure porn is just about sex, it is about so much more, damagingly more.

www.antipornography.org/home.html

If you read the titles of some porn films on the front page of this website (triggering) you will see some of the many, many ways porn is damaging. I know you know that, but I think we need to be clear porn is not just about sex!

www.antipornography.org/faq.html#138303

" 'presenting herself willingly as sex object, doing what society tells her to do and therefore deserves to be denigrated for it'." Does anyone, anyone, really think 11 year olds are doing this?? Willingly.?

IG -I'm not the best at articulation, but I'll give it another go. :)

"Girls sexualising themselves, without really knowing what they are doing." Can you explain how they are sexualising themselves? Re "Girls wanting to appear grown up and pretty, and part of the society we live in means there are no frames of reference for that that isn't about sexuality." i am not sure that is true, but it may appear so for some children who are not given any other frame of reference.

What I am getting at here is that it is totally normal for teens and preteens to try out being an adult, doing what adults do. They copy role models, and at this age it's normally celebs and slightly older peers. Duckface is supposed to be flattering for the cheekbones, but up along the line has also been used as a suggestive/smouldering expression. It is very easy in a hypersexualised culture for young girls, who are just getting to grips with things, for attractive to become conflated with what used to be called raunchy. No duckfaces aren't raunchy!But there are young teens sending naked selfies and that's a symptom of sexualising themselves, or perhaps better to say, responding to being groomed by society, to a large extent.

Re "Girls are fed a narrative that they are equal to boys in all ways, but they know it's not true." Do you really believe it is not true? Well, it's not true with regards to sexual behaviour. The narrative girls are fed is that being sexual is empowerment, and it's the same for both sexes. But the double standard has not gone away. And it's not boys who are shamed by clips of sex acts being passed around schools.

RE "They need approval and popularity. They start having sex themselves because of this need, rather than for their own desires." There have been lots of referenes on this and other threads to girls being pushed into sex, coerced into sex, threatened with violence if they do not have sex, how is that 'starting to have sex'. We are on the same page here, I'm saying using the need for popularity and approval is how the coercion works. Years ago it was Good girls don't, despite their own desires. Now it's Normal girls do, despite their own desires. It's still female sexuality being controlled.

" 'presenting herself willingly as sex object, doing what society tells her to do and therefore deserves to be denigrated for it'." Does anyone, anyone, really think 11 year olds are doing this?? Willingly.? Yup look at any case in the media, where 'she knew what she was doing, she enticed him, etc etc ' is trotted out. But really what I am getting at here is that girls start to grow up, want to fit in and be liked, which now, more than ever, means presenting a sexual side to themselves. But they get called tart and worse, and it's not even for the crime of being sexual which was always the way, but for the crime of trying to conform.

We're on the same page, I believe, ItalianGreyhound, but I don't mind being asked to unpick because it helps me get it straighter in my head.

Re But there are young teens sending naked selfies and that's a symptom of sexualising themselves, or perhaps better to say, responding to being groomed by society, to a large extent. Totally agree.

Re "But the double standard has not gone away. And it's not boys who are shamed by clips of sex acts being passed around schools." I agree but I am not sure this is really about being equal I think it is about not being treated the same. In a fair society we would not say that being sexually exploited was equally Ok for both sexes, we would say it was equally wrong for both sexes.

"We are on the same page here, I'm saying using the need for popularity and approval is how the coercion works. Years ago it was Good girls don't, despite their own desires. Now it's Normal girls do, despite their own desires. It's still female sexuality being controlled." Totally agree. I was just trying to get at what you meant.

Re 2Yup look at any case in the media, where 'she knew what she was doing, she enticed him, etc etc ' is trotted out. But really what I am getting at here is that girls start to grow up, want to fit in and be liked, which now, more than ever, means presenting a sexual side to themselves. But they get called tart and worse, and it's not even for the crime of being sexual which was always the way, but for the crime of trying to conform."

I guess my point was that people cannot really thin a girl of 11 is sexual, I just find it beggers belief but of course you are right some people do think it. To me it is very close to saying a baby is sexual!

Yes, I am sure we are on the same page, I just feel we need to be very clear that 11 year old girls have NO IDEA that if they were cropped tops and shorts that ANY man or boy would assume they meant they wanted to have any kind of sex with them! The idea and intention is in the minds of boys and men, older boys one would hope. I do not think young girls of 11 would know what this meant unless they had been groomed to believe this was so. We really need to make it clear where the sexualisation is coming from, it is not from children, that is victim blaming.

Yes, on same page.

I'm very wary of ever talking about girls sexualizing themselves. We do need to be very careful about the language we use.......

I'm also quite interested in the fact that not many people are posting on this thread. And, as far as I can see, only one porn-advocate. The are usually loads.

Perhaps they've all woken up, given their heads a little wobble and realised...

yes BertrandRussell it's very important how we talk about these things. In some ways words only have the meaning we understand them to have, so if lots of people talk about things in a certain way it can change the meaning of how they are perceived.

Well, it's not true with regards to sexual behaviour. The narrative girls are fed is that being sexual is empowerment, and it's the same for both sexes. But the double standard has not gone away. And it's not boys who are shamed by clips of sex acts being passed around schools.

It is not only the double standard. The sex itself is not equal. Girls do not get the enjoyment out of it that boys do (with pornified sex, is there even anything enjoyable other than, perhaps the success in 'fitting in'?), but take all the risks.

I dressed "sexy" when I was ten years old and trying to be like the cool adults in the magazines. The opinion of males on how I dressed was not something I even thought about.

Someone pointed out to me that males like to ogle women's bodies.

I hated boys, because they were mean to me, so the logical conclusion was to wear as many clothes as possible.

Being a selfish asshole has protected me from ever falling victim to the double standard. The fact that I knew about pregnancy before boys my age even became interested in sex, helped, too.
I always knew that I would have the greatest risk, and had I ever been the type for casual sex, I would have made damn sure the guy works to compensate me for the risks I take.

Maybe we should teach girls to be more selfish.

YY Bertrand. The fact that a picture of an 11 yr old could even be considered sexual is symptomatic of a wider problem. It is overwhelmingly girls as well who are described as sexualizing themselves, almost never boys .

Can you imagine a picture of an 11 yr old boy being described as sexual - even if he was doing an adult male sexual pose (whatever that would be). It would more likely be considered a joke - or acting out - or worrying (in a maternal, what might be wrong type of way rather than a victim-blaming way).

Sorry, I've been busy all day so not long been back to this thread.

I've just reported my post and asked HQ to come and engage here as posters are unhappy with the sexualised posts being allowed to stand.

Will get back to you if they reply to me.

Vestal "Maybe we should teach girls to be more selfish." I think we should teach them to think of themselves more, not sure that is genuinely selfish but I kind of agree with you.

Thanks Lilac.

I don't like the "selfish" word either. Why is it selfish for a girl to want to be sexually self determining and not to be responsible for anyone else's sexual desires?

I don't like the "selfish" word either. Why is it selfish for a girl to want to be sexually self determining and not to be responsible for anyone else's sexual desires?

You're right, it is not really selfish.

I use that word as self-description because it makes clear that accusing me of selfishness won't work and I don't give a damn what othes think about my decisions.
(I also self-describe as prudish, hairy-legged TERF)

Obviously, when teaching girls about boundaries and self-esteem, other words would be a better choice.

However, I am not sure there is a positive word that describes a woman who knows that she deserves good things and doesn't deserve bad things and sets boundaries.
Self-esteem is a noun, how does one make it an adjective?

"
However, I am not sure there is a positive word that describes a woman who knows that she deserves good things and doesn't deserve bad things and sets boundaries." A man?