Young dependent male children in women's only spaces?

[PrincessTeacake]

Long term lurker here, very infrequent contributer.

Circumstances over the last year have meant I spent most of my very little free time on Tumblr, for convenience's sake, and I fell into the radfem circles there. Every now and then there's a rift in the community over something and it all gets a bit childish because they are mostly young and quite reactionary. I stay out of it for the most part, but I wanted to get some (more sensible) opinions here on the latest rift.

Someone brought up the topic of little boys in women's only spaces (bathrooms, changing rooms, emergency shelters) and there was a lot of talk about how boys can't be trusted under any circumstances, that it was equally as bad as letting intact transwomen in, and naturally some of the mothers in the community got quite upset. There was a lot of anti-child rhetoric being thrown around and some harassment of the mothers.

What's the consensus here? I'm asking mostly for one of my online friends, she was very upset by this discussion and was on the receiving end of quite a bit of the bullying.

Where are all these communal or single sex changing rooms?

All the pools I know have mixed sex all cubicle changing 'villages'.

I use the big family cubicles with DD. Ds has wanted his own from about 6 I think.

With regards to other female spaces I've known feminist seperatists who won't tolerate being in a room with male babies which is bonkers imo.

There comes a point where single mums of boys can be quite excluded from some feminist spaces.

But on the other hand I've known 5-7 yo boys to behave in ways I can see why you wouldn't want them in 'safe' places. If they've been exposed to misogynistic men they can copy a lot of that behaviour at that age.

DrSeuss primary school children are still getting changed all together in the classroom for PE at 8 and 9 aren't they, in general - some still at 10... I doubt the children are the ones bothered about getting changed together, while they are all young.

The best case scenario is cubicles for everyone of course - and plenty of family cubicles.

Nobody thinks 5 year old boys should have to go into the men's changing rooms- or any changing rooms alone.

What many of us do think is that 8 year old boys should. Because our 8 year old girls have a right to expect that there will be none of her boy classmates in the changing room with her. And girl's rights are as important as boy's. It's not about anything ridiculous like all boys being predators, or adult women being "ogled" by prepubescent boys. It's all about girl's rights to a women only space.

DrSeuss sorry cross posted - glad you agree she was an arse :o But that occasion makes me wonder if all these people seeing boys who are "at least 12" are also getting on their high horse about boys whose age they have over estimated (with the exception of the poster who saw a mum steering a son taller than herself of course).

I also worry about the single mums of young but older than 7 year old boys who are more than averagely vulnerable due to hidden disabilities being told they should stop going swimming (or using public toilets presumably...) It doesn't affect me but I can empathise as my now confident, self reliant middle child had a very shy phase where he would have been crippled with anxiety at being sent off to a separate changing room alone while his sister and preschooler brother got to stay with me...

Don't most places have changing rooms that people with disabilities can use? Surely that includes "hidden" disabilities?

Boys in women's changing rooms. 8 seems a reasonable cut off. Yes I have worked with male sex offenders too and I would let me 8 year old boy change in a male changing room. I may be more circumspect about some dodgy public toilets though.

I worry more about my 10year old daughter having to get changed in front of boys, that is more of the issue. If some daft mum brings her 10year old boy into women's changing I can live with it but it is inappropriate for me daughter having to.

It's a tricky area.

Btw where are these radical feminists who have a problem with male babies? FFS.

"Btw where are these radical feminists who have a problem with male babies? FFS."

That's not a general radfem perspective, by the way.

Maybe Bertrand - they surely should, but I'd bet there aren't enough of them. I remember a recent thread where a mother was told that she should stand in a queue after swimming, getting cold, for the one family cubicle rather than take her autistic 9 year old son to use one of multiple free cubicles in the women's. That is a two tier system if ever there was one...

I am not meaning to be rude but I think you need to widen your circle and get off tumblr young boys are children segrating children from their mother s and other women is quite frankly ridiculous I think for public changing rooms its 8 or9 but little boys are not dangerous or encroaching on female spaces imagine a woman leaving a DV situation taking her boys with her and refuges turning her away because she had male children and she had nowhere to go but back to her abusive partner

What would these radfems do if they gave birth to a dangerous boy baby ?

What pisses me off is that the problem is the unsafe nature (perceived or real) of male only changing spaces, yet the discussion isn't about how men allowed those spaces to become so toxic, or why men are doing fuck all about it. It's all about how women of all ages have to deal with the fallout from it.

Schwab, the second best way to handle that would be for a staff member to check for a free cubicle and give women in the room a few minutes warning. Then for the mum to step out when they were ready and do the same before her son left the cubicle.

The best way would be increased family provision.

I think about 8 or 9 is a reasonable cut-off age, I don't generally see boys older than that in the women's changing rooms at our local pool, except for once when I saw a boy that looked at least 10 and his mum was washing his bum in the shower for him! Maybe he had additional needs or something as otherwise that was a bit weird.

Its all naked showering and sauna here (strict rules on that) but I haven't seen any issues with boys sniggering at boobies or staring or anything, kids seem to be well-brought up here in that respect due to family sauna customs (they already know what a naked woman looks like because they will see their mum/sisters etc. naked regularly in the sauna so seeing other girls and women isn't such a big deal)

MrsJayy, these are a few silly folks on the internet for whom parenthood is a long way off. Plenty of Radfems have boy babies that we manage not to eat for breakfast,

Oh and tell your online friend to find a more open kinder and not so nutty forum

There is a big difference between rad fems and seperatists!

Why are people implying I said rad fem when I didn't?

I don't consider seperatists feminists at all.

My replies were to Madeline and mrsj

I didn't mean all radfems justt "those* radfems {grin} @ eating boy babies

Small children I don't mind what gender they are, honestly. However I think that by 7-8 they should be able to sort themselves out. I am all for "family" based changing rooms. Personally I am actually uncomfortable changing in front of anybody, so I change in the toilet , but obviously I have to shower etc in the main area.

Meh smilie fail

It's attitudes like this that have many women and girls declaring that they're not feminists. I don't think radical feminists help feminism in any way, shape or form. Seriously, what do they do if and when they give birth to a dreaded boy child?

"What pisses me off is that the problem is the unsafe nature (perceived or real) of male only changing spaces, yet the discussion isn't about how men allowed those spaces to become so toxic, or why men are doing fuck all about it. It's all about how women of all ages have to deal with the fallout from it."

In most circumstances I would agree with you. It pisses me off that women generally have to adapt to accommodate men. But in this particular case, I'm not actually sure what men could do to counter the idea that male changing rooms are dangerous places for boys to go into. They obviously aren't- but it is a powerful bit of self perpetuating urban mythology.

" I don't think radical feminists help feminism in any way, shape or form. Seriously, what do they do if and when they give birth to a dreaded boy child?"

Read my prior posts.

Male changing rooms in themselves are not dangerous places for boys to go into. However, there are dangerous men out there who, given the opportunity, will commit sexual offences against children. Unaccompanied young children, getting changed in a public space, are easy prey. It's not urban mythology, it's a fact.

"It's attitudes like this that have many women and girls declaring that they're not feminists. I don't think radical feminists help feminism in any way, shape or form. Seriously, what do they do if and when they give birth to a dreaded boy child?"

No radical feminist ever has had a problem with baby boys.

There are a few batshit crazy separatist feminists who do. Bit ascribing their views to radical -or any other sort of feminist- is a bit like saying vegetarians are the same as the sort of animal rights activists that send letter bombs to scientists.