Young dependent male children in women's only spaces?

[PrincessTeacake]

Long term lurker here, very infrequent contributer.

Circumstances over the last year have meant I spent most of my very little free time on Tumblr, for convenience's sake, and I fell into the radfem circles there. Every now and then there's a rift in the community over something and it all gets a bit childish because they are mostly young and quite reactionary. I stay out of it for the most part, but I wanted to get some (more sensible) opinions here on the latest rift.

Someone brought up the topic of little boys in women's only spaces (bathrooms, changing rooms, emergency shelters) and there was a lot of talk about how boys can't be trusted under any circumstances, that it was equally as bad as letting intact transwomen in, and naturally some of the mothers in the community got quite upset. There was a lot of anti-child rhetoric being thrown around and some harassment of the mothers.

What's the consensus here? I'm asking mostly for one of my online friends, she was very upset by this discussion and was on the receiving end of quite a bit of the bullying.

I don't have children and rarely use communal changing facilities anyway. I'd be fine with a little boy under eight in theory, but I certainly wouldn't be comfortable with a 10- or 12-year-old. Sure, they aren't a risk, but that's not really the point - it's a women's space and an 11-year-old girl, say, would definitely be uncomfortable, especially if she was unaccompanied.

There are three things that strike me about this. First, that a very few men are the problem and all women and girls take the hit for it.

Second, that some women are prone to special pleading and make things difficult for everyone because they believe that their child, for whatever reason, can't follow the same rules as everyone else's child.

Third, that if more fathers were willing and able to do activities with their sons, it would make life a lot easier for everyone. (Although I do wonder whether there wouldn't be a small number of women who weren't comfortable with their eight-year-old daughters in a men's changing room, even if accompanied by their father.)

I know 12 year old boys arent a risk (generally. There are 12 year olds who have sexually assaulted, raped and murdered). But neither are most men.

There is a post pubertal girl with downs syndrome uses the changing rooms. She has no inhibitions and walks around naked. There was a mum there, changing her small girl, while the older boys sat waiting, openly staring at this girl.

No, im not comfortable.

One mum walked her male child, taller than her, through the womens change with her hands over his eyes instructing him not to look, to a toilet cubicle.

This is a womens issue too. Why do women think this behaviour is acceptable? As pp said, because its their sons, and rules dont apply?

There are a lot of fathers take their children to lessons too. The fathers wait outside while the girls get changed alone.

An 11/12 year old can walk himself to school, to his mates house, to the shop, but cant wait on his own in a leisure centre?

DS2 has ASD and I was a single parent, so he had to come in to changing rooms with me on the rare occasions I could convince him to go swimming

We only used family changing spaces and, with the greatest respect, tough. He's very vulnerable. If there had been an alternative we'd have used it.

That said, we tended to go during the school day, so it probably wasn't so much of a problem

Having worked with sex offenders, I can tell you that there's not a cat in hell's chance of me sending my son into male toilets or changing rooms until I think he's old enough. No fucking way. And I don't care how many people that offends.

Elizabeth, I agree with you, well said. I have two boys at that strange age 8 and 10, and I speak to them at LENGHT about what to do if they think someone is trying to take a photo of them in a changing room, touch them (or touch themselves) and I will do everything that I can to protect my children. Its my job. For example, I am happy for them to go to the men loo at my local cafe/shop etc but not at larger and busy places like Heathrow airport. we go to a pool with family changing room even if its further away.

Not all of us have a male partner who can take our son swimming.

I'm with Elizabeth on this one. One of my good friends was a lifeguard at the local pool when we were both students. He reported that there were certain men who were well known to the staff at the pool - when they appeared a male member of staff would always quite "coincidentally" be sent in to mop the floor of the male changing room or similar, to protect any vulnerable youngsters in there.

I'm lucky that my local pool has a family changing room (with extra-large cubicles) in addition to the male and female changing rooms, which seems like a good idea. The next nearest one has all-cubicle, mixed changing rooms (with some of the cubicles larger for families). Both of these arrangements seem like the sensible ones, but if they weren't available, I would take my son into the ladies (and use a cubicle).

That's not me being a precious over-protective mummy with no concern for other women's feelings. That's me making a sensible judgement based on the relative risks.

Incidentally, how many public pools in Britain only have communal changing rooms available, with no cubicles? I can think of a local, privately-run open air pool near where I live that's like that, but none of the council leisure centres have that sort of arrangement.

"One of my good friends was a lifeguard at the local pool when we were both students. He reported that there were certain men who were well known to the staff at the pool - when they appeared a male member of staff would always quite "coincidentally" be sent in to mop the floor of the male changing room or similar"

Fair enough, Lurcio. But then the solution is surely to have a qualified staff member on duty in both changing rooms all the time to keep an eye on things?

If that happened, then fair enough, a young boy could go into male changing rooms/toilets. However, if I have any doubts about the safety of the "male space", then there is no way my child would be going in alone. I'd rather offend a changing room full of women who want to walk around naked than risk my son being sexually assaulted.

Thing is though Elizabeth, you and your son might be ok.

But older boys becoming the norm in womens changing means it becomes easier for them to gain access- it is n ours, as ive said, and if i saw a 12 year old boy i don't think id even challenge him, id assume he was in there with parents.

So you've got 12 year old boys freely accessing womens changing, and at times there are no adults in there. Then my 8 year old daughter getting changed after swimming is at risk. More risk, in fact, because the space is perceived as "safe".

But surely your 8 year old daughter would be with a parent? And if a 12 year old boy was in there then that should also be with his parent - I'm not saying it's appropriate for 12 year old boys to go in women's toilets or changing rooms alone.

I wouldn't bat an eyelid if a junior age boy or below was in a female changing room.

I was at the Turner exhibition in Margate when a dad hovered outside whilst his daughter went into the ladies. Another mum (a stranger to him) quickly realised the situation and said she would keep an eye on her.

Also, when my 11 year old tells me she doesnt like using the changing room, especially on her own, because of all the boys in there, what do i tell her?

She has to put up with it because boys are more important? She should ignore her instinct telling her somethings not right about a situation?

No, my 8 year old is fully capable of swimming and changing herself. She swims with a club 3 times a week, and sometimes her dad takes her.

Yes, the boy should have a parent. But its so normal for boys to be in there, and there are so many, like i said i dont think id notice one without a parent. It would be easy for one to enter with a group of people and not be challenged.

No, boys are not more important - they are as important as women and girls and deserve to be protected from sexual abuse. I don't think boys should be unsupervised (i.e. without their mother/other female carer) in female changing rooms, but I do think that they should be allowed in when the only other option is sending them into male changing rooms unaccompanied.

Would you send an 8 year old boy into male changing rooms by himself?

Sometimes I wonder at my own naivety. DS has just turned 7 and he has been going unaccompanied (if DH isn't with us) into mens' loos, and yes, I suppose changing rooms, for a good year.

Are male changing rooms really such a risky space? Are they really full of men unable to stop themselves from assaulting young boys? And are the non-predators just standing by, watching it happen? Are men as a group really so dangerous and not to be trusted?

I find it hard to believe, but then again I don't disbelieve anyone on this thread.

I understand it's a risk assessment, and people seemingly don't want to take the risk - but is the risk being blown out of all proportion?

Because otherwise, it seems like we're saying that we expect men to behave like dangerous, uncontrollable beasts.

I dont think they should, for reasons above.

Women only should be women only and boys under 8.

If women want to accompany their older boys they should find elsewhere to get changed. in our centre there are several alternatives that could be used, but the women need to start using them, and pointing out to staff that areas where mixed sex children can change are needed.

Me, complaining about the boys gets me dismissed as a prude or told these mothers cant leave their boys.

If you have an older boy, ask if theres a place you can take him, rather than use the womens and expect everyone there to suck it up.

My 12 year old son would be offended if I took him into the ladies to change. I wait outside the men's for him. However at a service station with dodgy looking toilets I ensure he goes in with his sibling.

However at work I have to share my toilet space with a transgender. Why is that ok for me?

Dowager, my views are definitely influenced by the job that I do and at times I wish I had heard and seen less than I have. Logically, I know that the risk is probably lower than I perceive it to be, but I also know that the cases that I have worked with are real situations that have definitely not been made up or exaggerated. My children are still younger than the ages that we're talking about in this thread, but if they get to 8/9 and I am not comfortable with a particular set-up, then I will not take the risk.

Micah, what are the alternatives? What should a mother with an 8/9 year old son do when taking him swimming on her own? Would you send him into the male changing room?

If this is a particular issue at your local pool, then you should also point out to staff that more appropriate changing facilities are needed for male children. It's not just for the mothers of the boys to address, the staff need to see the issue from both sides.

I think 8/9 year old boys are much more often victims of sexual assault than they are perpetrators, especially against adult women.

People who simply feel uncomfortable can change under a towel surely? Tbh, I'm not terribly comfortable changing in front of other women. A 9 year old boy might stare, so might a 9 year old girl. It's my problem if I'm not comfortable changing in front of a child, but I'm not obliged to prance around naked if I don't want to.

If a child goes swimming regularly then they probably can cope OK on their own by about 8 (if no SN) But if it's an unfamiliar pool it's quite young to be finding your way around on your own.

Agree - under 8.

I get this all the time in swimming baths, funny looks, rude comments. About my 9 year old son being in the female changing rooms with me. There is no family room tho. He's very short for his age so only looks about 7, he's also autistic so will probably be in ther with me for a few years yet. It's a nightmare.