Young dependent male children in women's only spaces?

[PrincessTeacake]

Long term lurker here, very infrequent contributer.

Circumstances over the last year have meant I spent most of my very little free time on Tumblr, for convenience's sake, and I fell into the radfem circles there. Every now and then there's a rift in the community over something and it all gets a bit childish because they are mostly young and quite reactionary. I stay out of it for the most part, but I wanted to get some (more sensible) opinions here on the latest rift.

Someone brought up the topic of little boys in women's only spaces (bathrooms, changing rooms, emergency shelters) and there was a lot of talk about how boys can't be trusted under any circumstances, that it was equally as bad as letting intact transwomen in, and naturally some of the mothers in the community got quite upset. There was a lot of anti-child rhetoric being thrown around and some harassment of the mothers.

What's the consensus here? I'm asking mostly for one of my online friends, she was very upset by this discussion and was on the receiving end of quite a bit of the bullying.

As the mother of 3 boys, I have to agree with those who are not sending their boys into male spaces on their own.
Mine are still young - eldest is 6 - and if we are out somewhere and he needs the loo, I always tell him to go into the Ladies'! I mean if possible we all go together and squeeze into a disabled loo (someone's probably going to come along and tell me I'm not allowed to do that...), but if I can't leave the other two alone, I'd rather he goes into the ladies' room, where I can follow him if needed, and where I know he will be safe.
Men, in my eyes, pose a real danger in situations like public toilets, changing rooms etc, and no way would I send my young child in there on his own. I guess once he's old enough and I feel confident enough that he knows what to watch out for, this will change. But 8 still seems very young to me still, I think 10 might be more likely?

However at work I have to share my toilet space with a transgender. Why is that ok for me?

Presumably as you are not walking around naked in the work toilets nor sharing a cubicle, why would it not be OK?

"Would you send an 8 year old boy into male changing rooms by himself?"

Yes. And into the men's loos.

I must have done. My son and I started going on holiday in the October break on our own when we he was 7. I was trying to do a different European capital/major city each year. I'm certain I didn't accompany him to the toilet.

(I did however the first couple of years have a Paddington Bear style luggage label tucked under his jumper with the name and address of our hotel)

How ridiculous, little boys don't pose a risk to anyone. And aren't we trying to bring up a generation of boys to be men that will respect women better and not want to abuse them? I thibk normalising women and their bodies while they're you g is a bloody good start, not segregating women away from the beginning. My sons come in with me until they feel.comfortable going into a men's toilet on their own and I feel they are able to protect themesleves and get out quickly if required - no Apologies here. In practical terms this seems to be until about 9/10.

The trouble is I have been sexually harassed by boys as young as 8 or 9 - got the clever fucking sexist comments from them, and had them suddenly grabbing at me then running off giggling. No they're not a danger exactly, but it's deeply unpleasant and of course as a random adult I have no comeback against them - which hardly helps to stop them from feeling entitled to do more in the future. I imagine they would be quite intimidating to a young girl of the same age, especially since they tend to act like this when in pairs or groups rather than alone. If they're with their own mothers they certainly won't act up. Nevertheless my experiences make me want them not to be there, either for myself or young girls on their own.

We have an appalling problem with the toxic construct of masculinity in this country and it starts very very young.

I'd rather offend a changing room full of women who want to walk around naked than risk my son being sexually assaulted.

Then don't go swimming until you think he's old enough to go into the male changing room alone. I usually hate the "entitled" badge on MN, but you have earned one.

We have an appalling problem with the toxic construct of masculinity in this country and it starts very very young.

And that is why.

Teach your son to respect women only spaces. Even if you don't respect them yourself.

I'd rather offend a changing room full of women who want to walk around naked than risk my son being sexually assaulted.

If it's a communal changing room, it's very difficult not to be naked or partly in it, at least briefly, as you get dry and slip on some undies. Women are hardly parading up and down with jazz hands.

My sons come in with me until they feel comfortable going into a men's toilet on their own and I feel they are able to protect themesleves and get out quickly if required - no Apologies here. In practical terms this seems to be until about 9/10

So your sons comfort is more important than my daughters? My daughter, in a female space, and is uncomfortable having boys in "her" changing rooms, doesn't like the staring, is about to enter puberty, should be told that boys are allowed to do this to her because they don't feel comfortable in their own space. What sort of message is that to a young girl? Boys and men come before women? She has to put her own needs and wants aside because the men say so?

The same when I object to staff, apparently my views aren't as important as those of the boy's mothers.

People who simply feel uncomfortable can change under a towel surely?

Why? It's difficult getting changed under a towel, makes you feel you have to hide your body, and female only change is so you can get changed in without feeling self conscious. It's about females modifying their behaviour because males are in their spaces.

If your boy doesn't want to use the mens, he can get changed under a towel poolside or in an open area. Lots do.

DD doesn't want to use the female change anymore. She uses toilets, disabled toilets, disabled change, changes poolside. Why can't the boys find an alternative space rather than using one supposedly for girls?

Like I said, me saying I don't want boys in female change gets me nowhere. If I say my DD doesn't want to use the female change I get a shrug and "that's her choice". It needs more mums of boys to stand up and say, look, He can't go into the mens on his own, but you can't expect me to take him into the women's now he's over 8, where can we go?

I walked into an older boy fully naked in the shower a few weeks ago. His mum had left the changing room to watch his siblings swimming lessons.

But the idea that children of 7 and below should be categorised by sex and forbidden from women's spaces to my mind comes from the same place as sexualising little girls by putting them in "future porn star" t-shirts - to my mind it's part of the problem. I totally agree there should be an age related cut off and I'm not sure what we should do about children with special needs other than pressing very hard for family changing rooms.

Incidentally in my local pool the problem is not so much children in the wrong single sex changing rooms as single men who insist on coming into the family ones - not because they're perves but because they're too damn lazy to walk the extra distance to the men's changing room. Now there's male entitlement for you.

You are right, Micah. We have all unisex cubicles at our pool which is good, I would like those everywhere.

oh my god riders - you are effectively telling women who are mothers to 8 yo boys that they should stay home. the weight of the dangers created by men falling again on women.

and a single mum with an 8yo in a busy place or in the scenario i mentioned upthread about a train platfrom with a shifty guy hanging around and acting suspiciously should either piss herself or leave her child on the platform with said guy rather than take her son into the toilet with her?

It's easier for a boy to change under a towel, if it comes to it, as there's fewer private bits!

mothers of 8yo boys are entitled for wanting to be able to access toilets in public whilst still protecting a child? yes, oh so entitled.

RidersOnTheStorm you reply to somebody saying I'd rather offend a changing room full of women who want to walk around naked than risk my son being sexually assaulted.

by saying

Then don't go swimming until you think he's old enough to go into the male changing room alone. I usually hate the "entitled" badge on MN, but you have earned one.

Both of you sound a bit unreasonable, aggressive and defensive!

Why do you think that when a woman becomes a mother of a boy child she becomes such a non person that you can tell her to stop going swimming?

This attitude stinks - mothers who have boy children of 7 or 8 who might be vulnerable (say due to autism) have to stop going swimming according to you? Stop taking their girl children swimming too probably, as most people can't split their children up.

Utterly punishing the mothers - who are also women, unless their status as a woman is removed if they have sole responsibility for a vulnerable boy child past the preschool years?

Some people are deliberately obtuse and talk about their right to do as they like in women only spaces, but actually when somebody says "My right to have the absolute perfect scenario where I can use a cubicle or communal area and walk about naked without boy children present trumps the right of another woman to use the pool at all" that person is the "entitled" one.

I'm telling them to stay home if they don't want them to use the allocated place, HoneyBadger. Both DSs used the male changing rooms from 8 onwards, it's their space.

If a parent isn't happy with the changing arrangements then she is not entitled to invade the privacy of many other girls and women. It's rude.

Cross posted with anne.

Why do boy children have more "rights" than girl children? To hell with little girls feeling uncomfortable changing around 12 year old boys, they need to suck it up because the boys have a right to invade their space?

I am the mother of sons. I didn't feel punished. I taught them that they kept to the rules and respect for women only spaces. That's my job.

LurcioAgain - good post (all of it, including the lazy single men using the family changing rooms!)

I agree all cubicle unisex changing rooms are the way to go at large pools - that is what we have at the pool we usually use too, but I have been to a pool, taken by a friend with just one daughter who hadn't even thought about where small but not that small boys would change, where it turned out the mens changing room was actually on a different corridor to the women's - quite a big ask for even a shy NT 8 year old boy to navigate getting changed and showered and stuff into lockers and through to the pool in an unknown layout a long way from his mother and sisters, not knowing where to ask for help, even if you take any worry about assault out of the equation.

I have never actually seen a women's changing room full of prepubescent boys, but do see people using the family cubicles alone (presumably because they are quite near the entrance or because they like the space) which does annoy me a lot - doesn't affect me much any more but did used to infuriate me when I had 3 kids under 6! Not a feminist issue - it would be women as often as men, just general arrogance and "your needs are not my problem" attitude as shown by the kind of posters who think mothers of vulnerable boys should stop going swimming rather than take the only feasible option of taking their child into the women's with them - ideally straight into a cubicle.

Who are all these women being discussed who "walk around naked"???

Any communal changing I've been in, women stand by their own little bit of bench/locker with a pile of clothes, get dry and dressed without moving much. Because it's women only, they can rub their boobs and bits dry without putting the bra on over the towel and then feeding the towel out of the bottom or whatever. That's it. Stop acting like that's unreasonable!

Remember, the enemy here (as this has become yet another swimming pool changing room threads) are those who commission and design pools, not other users.

There should be much better provision of family changing, where both sexes can go, plus separate sex for those who want it.

Until that happens, then you need to respect the rules of the pool you visit, to choose a different one if you do not like it. Yes that might mean you have to travel further, but so will the people holding the opposite view who will also to a pool with tolerable arrangements for them. And in the meantime, you can both campaign to get your local pool owners to put in the right facilities.

And there is nothing 'magical' that happens when they turn 8. It's simply a reflection of normal levels of independence in children, most of whom will have been at school for several years and developed the requisite competencies. Many would cope much younger, given a chance.

RidersOnTheStorm this is trotted out so often and it is so tired and so blatantly twisting the words of the people who feel they need to have their boy children with them.

boy children are not more important than girl children. Children are children. Exactly equally important.

Nobody has said boys are more important except you, you are just twisting people's words and motivations to make yourself sound reasonable in saying mothers of vulnerable boys have to take the hit for not having decent family provision by staying home.

And what about mothers of girls who end up staying home because they don't want to change with boys?

Mother of boys here. Just as there was a period when I was younger that my eldest was too old for the toddler session and too young to meet pool ratios when I took the baby, I had to only go swimming when another adult could come. There may well be a year or so when I feel unconfortable about the eldest being on his own so I won't take them in that year.

I don't take my 8 year old boy into a women's changing room btw - but when he was a shy 5 year old I was "told off" by having him in the women's with me - that women "knew" he was "at least 8" and as I didn't have his passport or birth certificate with me I couldn't prove her wrong. Some people can be real arses about this - and they are persecuting other women, its nothing to do with boys being more or less important, it is women driving other women out, because a mother has to look after her child, in circumstances where she doesn't have a known male adult to hand her male child over to at that point in time.

...to a pool without family changjng.

Schwab, that woman was an arse and no one on the thread thinks five year olds should not be allowed in the changing room.