Young dependent male children in women's only spaces?

[PrincessTeacake]

Long term lurker here, very infrequent contributer.

Circumstances over the last year have meant I spent most of my very little free time on Tumblr, for convenience's sake, and I fell into the radfem circles there. Every now and then there's a rift in the community over something and it all gets a bit childish because they are mostly young and quite reactionary. I stay out of it for the most part, but I wanted to get some (more sensible) opinions here on the latest rift.

Someone brought up the topic of little boys in women's only spaces (bathrooms, changing rooms, emergency shelters) and there was a lot of talk about how boys can't be trusted under any circumstances, that it was equally as bad as letting intact transwomen in, and naturally some of the mothers in the community got quite upset. There was a lot of anti-child rhetoric being thrown around and some harassment of the mothers.

What's the consensus here? I'm asking mostly for one of my online friends, she was very upset by this discussion and was on the receiving end of quite a bit of the bullying.

No, people are saying use the disabled facilities

I do not have a "women are stupid and irrational" narrative. I said that some people have irrational fears and it is the fears that should be addressed- their fears should not be accommodated by causing problems for other people. And forgive me, but a story of somebody taking photographs more than 10 years ago in another country is not going to do anything to show me that the fears are, in fact, rational.

And of course your child with disabilities should not be stopped from swimming. That's what the disabled facilities are for.

I think what Bertrand actually means is that woman with young boys who don't let them go alone into adult male changing rooms are being hysterical.

If there are limited changing facilities in a leisure centre, you can be sure that the disabled facility is just that. A facility that just about meets law requirements.

I don't understand why people have a problem with young boys being in ladies toilets, they all have doors so it's not exactly like they will be watching you wee

Oh I don't know, I've had kids peer under loo doors at me (in fairness their mothers have always been mortified). Wouldn't put it past unaccompanied 9/10/11 y old boys to do it just to be annoying.

The irony of this is that the more parents encourage their boys to use the ladies, the more other parents will perceive the men's to be dangerous so the men's will become for adult men only eventually, with everyone else crowded into the ladies. Surely the more boys who use the mens, the safer it will become? Though I don't believe the men's is unsafe for boys anyway.

I think bertrandrussell is right to say that the fear of paedophiles is often an exaggerated one, stoked by the mass media.

I don't have the stats to hand (and am disinclined to google them from my work computer) but isn't it the case that most sexual assaults on children are carried out by someone the victim knows? I just wonder if, in worrying about children's safety in changing rooms etc. our focus is in the wrong place.

There's an obvious echo of the classic rape myth - the stranger in the dark alley etc. Of course that's something that happens but it's not paradigmatic.

Yes thedancingbear, and isn't it also true that most sexual assaults on children are on girls not boys?

TBH this thread has shocked me. I take dd (9 yo) for her swimming lesson but she goes in the changing room on her own, I go straight to poolside to watch her. I'd just got over my anger about men being able to just say they felt like a woman to get access to women's changing areas and now this. It never even occurred to me that parents might be encouraging their 10/11 year old sons to use the ladies changing room unaccompanied. I think I might go in with her from now on (mostly because I've seen how the Y6 boys arse around on their way home from school rather than from a sex pest point of view).

If paedophiles are not in the men's changing room, then why do we assume all 10/11 year olds are possible sex pests?

No one does. It's about young girls feeling uncomfortable.

For those who do let their 10/11 yo boys use the ladies, don't you find it sad that when they turn 18 and definitely have to use the men's changing they will instantly be regarded as potential paedophiles (using your logic) by mothers with younger boys or do you just accept it?

"
If paedophiles are not in the men's changing room, then why do we assume all 10/11 year olds are possible sex pests?"

Nobody does. Nobody has said anything of the sort. You made it up.

Actually elendon, while no ones saying theyre sex pests, i would think theres far, far more chance of boys harrassing girls, in a "ooh look, shes wearing a bra", or "shes got no boobs", or even the my mate fancies you type of way, than a boy being approached by a paedophile in a busy mens changing.

Micah I find young girls can be just as nasty to each other as young boys. I suffered terribly at school for being flat chested and skinny legs - from girls in my year.

I'm the mother of young boys and when they have changed in the ladies we have whizzed in and out. Any young developing girls are not get changed in the communal part but in cubicle. We don't hang around and my sins do not have a shower there as I'm as keen as everyone else to get out of that environment.

I don't like the attitude on this thread that all 11/12 boys are sex pests. My sons are not. Same as your daughters are not picking on other girls for not wearing a bra. Let's stop this between us and agree that we need better facilities for all.

In

" don't like the attitude on this thread that all 11/12 boys are sex pests"
NOBODY IS SAYING THEY ARE!!!!!!

But- you don't take 11-12 year old boys into the ladies do you? Surely they don't let you???

Girls are just as bad at 'policing' what others should look like. Have you got your period yet? Are you not wearing a bra? She's wearing granny knickers. Tampons are the best.

Yet at the age of 16/17/18, teenagers are sharing bodily fluids and getting naked with each other. Regardless of their sexuality.

I wouldn't care less if an 11/12 year old boy came into the toilets with an adult.

I teach 11-12 year old boys (and girls). There are very, very few of them that I would trust not to stare at girls getting changed. Obviously there are some who would respectfully keep their eyes averted, but they are a minority. Most of them would get as much of an eyeful as they can get away with. Out of curiosity as much as anything else for a lot of them.

We have societal norms about dividing the sexes when we are in a state of undress. I'm a willing participant of this norm.

I've always been very British about nudity and therefore have NEVER, well since about six, got changed in a communal area.

and elendon? If my child was causing someone embarrassment through her speech, I wouldn't just shrug and say it can't be helped. Which seems to be the attitude of a few parents of boys.

Nor do I see what future sexual relationships have to do with it. You get there is a big difference between a consensual sexual relationship and feeling exposed to those of the opposite gender in your peer group? I have no hang ups about nudity in a relationship, doesn't mean I feel comfortable undressing in front of every adult member of the opposite sex.

MsMermaid are you saying the girls wouldn't look at the boys out of curiosity too. It is non sexual and I'm sure all kids do it. Again let's stop making boys out as the baddies.

Nobody's making boys out as baddies.

If we were talking about girls over the age of 8 being in the men's changing room I would say the same. Boys have the right to get changed without the presence of their girl classmates.

Ffs, did a whole load of posts get deleted? Because I certainly don't recall those where these silly suggestions that boys are all sex pests and baddies supposedly stem from.

I'm not trying to make out that boys are the baddies, and yes a lot of girls would look at boys too. THAT'S why they should change separately. It's not girls going into the boys' space usually anyway, it's boys who are old enough to be curious who are coming into girls spaces. The motivation of the person staring doesn't change the discomfort of the person being stared at.

Both boys and girls deserve a space where they can get changed without being stared at. Those spaces should be separate at an appropriate age, when the vast majority of children can manage on their own. If you are the parent of a child who can't manage on their own at that age then you need to make other arrangements. All of our local pools will find a solution for children who need assistance, but that solution should not be to go into the opposite sex (female) changing room where you most likely will be making other people (women and girls) uncomfortable. If people make a fuss, more family provisions will be made.

Thanks for summarising the points so well, Ms Mermaid!

I had classmates in primary school who were totally obsessed with sex. This being before the internet, their only outlet was ogling the women in underwear in clothes catalogues, but still ... oh, and I had to share a changing room with those boys in class one and two. (Whose genius idea this was, I have no idea.)

Five should be the cutoff point. When a child is old enough to go to school alone, he is old enough to dress himself.

He doesn't need to be a danger, it's enough that he makes the women and girls (let's not forget the little girls!) uncomfortable.