Young dependent male children in women's only spaces?

[PrincessTeacake]

Long term lurker here, very infrequent contributer.

Circumstances over the last year have meant I spent most of my very little free time on Tumblr, for convenience's sake, and I fell into the radfem circles there. Every now and then there's a rift in the community over something and it all gets a bit childish because they are mostly young and quite reactionary. I stay out of it for the most part, but I wanted to get some (more sensible) opinions here on the latest rift.

Someone brought up the topic of little boys in women's only spaces (bathrooms, changing rooms, emergency shelters) and there was a lot of talk about how boys can't be trusted under any circumstances, that it was equally as bad as letting intact transwomen in, and naturally some of the mothers in the community got quite upset. There was a lot of anti-child rhetoric being thrown around and some harassment of the mothers.

What's the consensus here? I'm asking mostly for one of my online friends, she was very upset by this discussion and was on the receiving end of quite a bit of the bullying.

At five my ds didn't go to school alone. He was transferred from my care to that of his teacher. Whose care is he in in the male changing room?
Not saying there should be no cut off but five is daft. Should the primary teacher make them change separately at five too?

I haven't RTFT sorry (17 pages!!). I also don't have any children yet so can't comment on a lot of the specificities.

I think there are some really important issues here, firstly there seems to be a concencus that the provision of alternative changing facilities at swimming pools/leisure centres is generally appalling. I think as women maybe we should be focusing our energy on improving this issue rather than fighting amongst ourselves about whether an 8 yr old boy is too old or if the cut off should be 10 etc. I am the eldest of three, my dad frequently took us swimming all together up until I turned 11, we always shared a family cubicle for the four of us, the swimming pool we went to had an abundance of them. I'm sure this saved many families lots of the stress/indecision described on this thread. This was a (large) city council funded pool btw.

Another thing I'm wondering about is whether two adults of different sexes manage to go swimming together with children of both sexes? That would make life easier and I'm wondering why that doesn't happen more often? I'm sure there are lots of practical reasons but I wonder whether more research into this area might be illuminating too. As I say, my dad always took me and my siblings, my mum sometimes came and sat poolside or came and sat in the café that we would then all have lunch at, but never entered the pool. She can't swim and has never been in a pool since leaving secondary school and has a fear of the water. My dad is also not a strong swimmer but was happy to take us and competent enough. I like to think me and DH would be able to go with any future children all together as a family and I have certainly seen people doing that here with very young children at my local pool. Obviously it's not always possible and I appreciate it becomes much more difficult for single parents or parents in same-sex relationships.

"I had classmates in primary school who were totally obsessed with sex. This being before the internet, their only outlet was ogling the women in underwear in clothes catalogues, but still ... oh, and I had to share a changing room with those boys in class one and two. (Whose genius idea this was, I have no idea.)

Five should be the cutoff point. When a child is old enough to go to school alone, he is old enough to dress himself.

He doesn't need to be a danger, it's enough that he makes the women and girls (let's not forget the little girls!) uncomfortable."

Thats the most fucking disturbing thing i've read on here. 5 yr olds are like babies, not sexual predators.

Thats the most fucking disturbing thing i've read on here. 5 yr olds are like babies, not sexual predators.

Like babies? Do you use a different kind of year than I do? Oo

And ... at what point do males become sexual predators that are too dangerous to leave your son alone with them?

"Five should be the cutoff point. When a child is old enough to go to school alone, he is old enough to dress himself.

He doesn't need to be a danger, it's enough that he makes the women and girls (let's not forget the little girls!) uncomfortable."

Oh for goodness sake. That's just plain daft. A 5 year old boy is a child. He probably doesn't even know or care what he's looking at.

"And ... at what point do males become sexual predators that are too dangerous to leave your son alone with them?"

Well for you it's obviously around 4 or 5 yrs old.

Yes, and very think 5 yr olds are more like babies than sexual predators - weird old me.

Left, without comment

PalmerViolet - that is sad and shocking, but are you suggesting that a 14 year old boy should have been allowed into a women's changing room?

We need safe facilities for vulnerable boys/men of all ages. But, as usual, women and girls are expected to give up their own right to privacy to ensure that men are not inconvenienced. Personally I couldn't care less if a 8 year old boy is eyeing up my middle-aged bod but a 7 year old girl might be very uncomfortable.

I left it without comment, interesting that that is what you took from my post.

The answer is no.

But it does suggest that the people who have said that the whole boys being sexaully assaulted in the loos thing being an urban myth on this thread are talking out of their arses rather.

Have a super day.

Vestal virgin. Not letting five year old boys in a female changing room as they may make some women or girls feel uncomfortable has to be the most bonkers post on this board for a long time.

Even assuming they are unlikely to get attacked. Can they open the doors? Can they put their own clothes in the bag? Can they use the locker.? I have three girls and they certainly couldn't do that at five. What if he wanders into the pool without armbands on?

I assume you're been goady or you don't have children . Or maybe your kids are amazingly advanced?

Yes the safety of a five year old boy trumps and female to feel uncomfortable FFS.

I have no problem taking my 7yo DS into toilets and changing rooms with me atm.

However my biggest concern is the proposed changes to the law in the UK, which are likely to go through within weeks, which will allow ALL MEN of any age, sexual orientation or criminal background to freely access our bathrooms/change rooms !

womenanalysingpolicyonwomen.wordpress.com/2016/02/01/women-only-spaces-and-proposed-changes-to-the-equality-act-and-gender-recognition-act/

The intention behind the act is to reduce violence against trans-women (intact biological men who feel they are women).

The actual result of this act will mean any man can walk into our changing rooms and get undressed and we have to accept this legally.

There are growing lists/articles/videos outlining many crimes committed against women in bathrooms/changing rooms in countries where similar laws have already been passed.

If anyone is interested, there are several posts on Mumsnet atm discussing this issue.

Men in women's safe spaces second thread

Trans Lobby good for xx women ?

Last link with triggering video on first post.
Men in women's safe spaces first thread