Young dependent male children in women's only spaces?

[PrincessTeacake]

Long term lurker here, very infrequent contributer.

Circumstances over the last year have meant I spent most of my very little free time on Tumblr, for convenience's sake, and I fell into the radfem circles there. Every now and then there's a rift in the community over something and it all gets a bit childish because they are mostly young and quite reactionary. I stay out of it for the most part, but I wanted to get some (more sensible) opinions here on the latest rift.

Someone brought up the topic of little boys in women's only spaces (bathrooms, changing rooms, emergency shelters) and there was a lot of talk about how boys can't be trusted under any circumstances, that it was equally as bad as letting intact transwomen in, and naturally some of the mothers in the community got quite upset. There was a lot of anti-child rhetoric being thrown around and some harassment of the mothers.

What's the consensus here? I'm asking mostly for one of my online friends, she was very upset by this discussion and was on the receiving end of quite a bit of the bullying.

"Male changing rooms in themselves are not dangerous places for boys to go into. However, there are dangerous men out there who, given the opportunity, will commit sexual offences against children. Unaccompanied young children, getting changed in a public space, are easy prey. It's not urban mythology, it's a fact."

How many cases of sexual assault have taken place in the changing rooms of swimming pools in the UK in the last 12 months?

I don't remember reading about any such incidents, Elizabeth, but no doubt there have been a few.

Sadly, there's a higher statistical risk from family, friends and neighbours. Do you also suggest not leaving your 8 year old with one of your cousins or friends?

How many cases of sexual assault have taken place in the changing rooms of swimming pools in the UK in the last 12 months?

I don't know, most offences are not reported. Most that are reported wouldn't then be widely reported in the media.

As I've said previously, the risk is undoubtedly lower than I perceive it, due to the work that I do. However, the risk is definitely there, and it's not one I'm willing to take. Boys should not be put at risk of sexual assault to avoid offending adult females. I've also previously said that I don't think boys should be unaccompanied in female changing rooms/toilets - they should be with their mother/female carer. Of course, ideally they would be in a cubicle rather than a communal space. It's not about "boys being more important than girls" - I do not think that at all. It's about someone's right not be sexually abused being more important than someone else's right to a "perfect", all female space.

DrSeuss, yes, statistically, the risk of being abused by someone you know is higher than a stranger assault. It's a separate issue that I would also take precautions with.

there's a post on here essentially proposing mothers of boys who don't have a adult male escort shouldn't go swimming for a year or so or until their son is capable and confident of going alone into male changing rooms.

ergo women without males should have less freedom of movement than married/fathered/etc ones?

afghanistan springs to mind.

I am probably considered a rad fem here. I have two boys. Can we stop with the insults please.

The choice being presented between women just needing to suck their feelings of being uncomfortable because me changing spaces are dangerous for boys and women restricting their movements because they have sons are equally patriarchal. The root of the problem isn't adressed and the burden of sorting it out is at women's feet.

*men's

at mothers feet more accurately scallops.

I said that's what I would do, honey

Swimming is an optional leisure activity. Needing to go a bit further for a year to a pool with family changing, or to only go when you have another male adult/older child with you, or to just let your child go into the men's and ask a staff member to check on him if he's taking a while... Is hardly comparable to Afghanistan!

Reading this I'm so glad we have a decent setup at our local pool; unisex cubicles with a few larger family ones. Our eldest is 9 (looks 11) and still needs that extra level of supervision, but you wouldn't know to look at him. I'm not quite sure what we'd do if it was just me taking him for a swim with separate changing rooms. It wouldn't necessarily be the safety of the male changing rooms but his own hidden disabilities that would be the issue.

At the same time, it would never have occurred to use the disabled facilities as he is physically able, and his lessons are at the same time as a wheelchair bound swimmer often goes so I'm quite conscious of their overriding needs.

It sounds like it comes down to provision of family rooms or unisex areas alot of the time, is this something people have found at specific pools, council or private ones? Who would be the best people to contact about this?

such an easily solveable issue if leisure centres would just have unisex changing rooms with cubicles, then noone needs to concern themselves with whatever sex, gender, identity of other people who just want to go swimming.

My local leisure centre has unisex changing rooms, with loads of cubicles and a main area if you dont care about privacy.
I wouldnt send my young boy into a mens changing room without me. Hes much more at risk in there than any women would be from a small boy child

Perhaps these 'rad fems' described in the OP are objecting to the attitude that women should just suck it up. Again. As usual.

Perhaps the OP could clarify?

Yes the solution to this is for swimming pools to get refurbished so they have unisex cubicle changing areas.

And no TheHoneyBadger the problem is at women's door. Women, mothers or otherwise are being told on this thread that their feelings don't matter and they should accept feeling uncomfortable because the alternative is much worse.

" don't know, most offences are not reported. Most that are reported wouldn't then be widely reported in the media."

So how many have you come across in the course of your work, then?

Just as a point of information, in case anyone isn't clear, a "radical" feminist not an "extreme" feminist. The "radical" just means that we think that the current societal structures need to be changed before things can get better for both women and men.

How does unisex changing areas work re showers? I have not been near a public swimming pool for decades.

So far as refuges what is the mother of a teenage boy meant to do? Leave him behind?

Refuges are really tough. Ideally there would be safe family units, I think.

Family changing cubicles are the way to go. My dh takes our dc swimming. He chooses to take them to a leisure centre with changing facilities that he is comfortable with.

Our ds is nearly 8. When out and about with me only, I will take him into the women's public toilets if needed. There is not a person on Earth who will convince me to allow my young ds to go into the men's loo. Because I am not allowed in there. I can't go in to check that he is ok. That there are no teenage idiots lurking or worse.

So for the time being, my young, male child will enter female only spaces when with me. For his safety. If anyone is uncomfortable with that then tough bloody bananas.

I really would like someone to tell me whether there is any evidence that an 8 year old boy is at any risk of being sexually assaulted in the men's changing room of a leisure centre swimming pool.

Blimey. I took my 3 dc swimming in the week after school. Ds1 is 9 and Dd1 is 7. Ds2 doesn't have lessons yet as he is too young.

We all go in the same changing room, the ladies. We use the little cubicles when they are free or go round the corner to a more private area. I don't feel comfortable sending Ds1 alone to get changed. I have never been in there.

Have I been doing something then that others feel is a big no? Why should I have to send him on his own if I'm not comfortable with that? Am I being a bit pfb?

Found this document if it's of any interest, with a big about different changing rooms options...

www.sportengland.org/media/42727/Swimming-Pools-Design-2011-Rev3.pdf

Am I being a bit pfb? Maybe if you keep taking him into the women's changing room for much longer, I would consider 8/9 the cut off age. Doesn't he get embarrassed at going in there at 9? I remember being extremely embarrassed at my dad taking me into the men's changing rooms when I was younger than that.

I really would like someone to tell me whether there is any evidence that an 8 year old boy is at any risk of being sexually assaulted in the men's changing room of a leisure centre swimming pool.

I don't have statistics, which seems to be what you are after. I know from working with sex offenders that there is a definite risk in the scenarios that people on this thread are telling mothers to place their male children in. You can choose to believe me or not, that's up to you.

OK, have just spoken to Ds1 about it. He would rather get changed on his own in the men's. Maybe I have been pfb about it.

Still, it says a lot that I feel uncomfortable about this. He is fine, more than capable, it's just he won't see that he is vulnerable. Why should he?

Yes he gets embarrassed. Has been aware of covering up since around 5-6. Hence why I go in the cubicles.

I would rather he was safe and embarrassed rather than somewhere vulnerable though.

I don't see the problem being him. It's the type of changing rooms available plus who may or may not be in there that is the problem.

I have a tall 6-year-old who is bursting out of size 8 clothes atm. His presence on women's areas has not been a problem yet because he is so obviously a child (in his words & behaviour) but I expect there to be several years when he won't be welcome in the female areas but will not be safe ito change in men's either. I will go for other places/solutions at that point.

As we say often in FWR, other groups' right to safety does not trump women's right to be safe and at ease in female-only spaces.