Young dependent male children in women's only spaces?

[PrincessTeacake]

Long term lurker here, very infrequent contributer.

Circumstances over the last year have meant I spent most of my very little free time on Tumblr, for convenience's sake, and I fell into the radfem circles there. Every now and then there's a rift in the community over something and it all gets a bit childish because they are mostly young and quite reactionary. I stay out of it for the most part, but I wanted to get some (more sensible) opinions here on the latest rift.

Someone brought up the topic of little boys in women's only spaces (bathrooms, changing rooms, emergency shelters) and there was a lot of talk about how boys can't be trusted under any circumstances, that it was equally as bad as letting intact transwomen in, and naturally some of the mothers in the community got quite upset. There was a lot of anti-child rhetoric being thrown around and some harassment of the mothers.

What's the consensus here? I'm asking mostly for one of my online friends, she was very upset by this discussion and was on the receiving end of quite a bit of the bullying.

Sorry you feel like that tilder, really hope it doesn't put you off posting here again.

I agree Bertrand and obviously the ideal solution is unisex cubicles for everyone.

But until that happens, why is it ok to invade women's spaces but not men's? Especially when it's the perceived lack of safety in the men's changing rooms that is causing the problem?

Should my DD have to get changed in front of boys her age? At the moment fine she is 6 in two/three/four years absolutely not! I also have a son he will not be changing in the ladies after the age of 8. If he is not capable of changing in the men's I will make extra provision for him. Young girls deserve to feel comfortable in spaces FOR them. I wouldn't go into the men's as young boys deserve to feel comfortable in spaces FOR them. My DSS (10) would be mortified if I went into the men's to look for him or suggested that he came in the women's (I know not all ten year old would be like this before anyone jumps on me).

Again I would like to reiterate as someone said above nobody's else's rights or needs trump my daughters (or any women's) need for a safe segregated space.

Womens shelters are tricky and provision for women only and women and children should both be readily available or perhaps seperate wings so women who need to be completely segregated can be without leaving other women with children vulnerable. NO women or her children, wether male or female, should be left with an abuser with no way out.

My son never liked going into the boys toilet in primary school and this has continued into secondary. He's never thought of toilets as a safe space. Nor did my daughters like their female toilets in their secondary school.

How do unisex cubicles work in regards to showers? Our pool rules state that you have to shower naked (and showering is compulsory), so you can't just go in the shower in your swimming costume - having a shower in each cubicle would be too much but how else could people shower in a unisex changing area?

At our nearest unisex swimming pool the showers are open but you don't have to shower naked I have never seen that before.

It's quite unusual in the UK to have a shower naked rule!

OK, kids are in bed and just sorting stuff out. Realised I don't know how to hide threads. Never mind.

No bertrand I'm not upset and you're not insensitive. Just feel I don't want to carry on in a discussion where I feel my viewpoint is seen as having such little worth. Not by everyone, but overall it's just not for me. I am strongly feminist but this had made me feel like it's the wrong sort of feminism for this board.

I do get the whole age of boys thing in a women's changing room. I will do things differently now. As I have said, I just hadn't thought about it.

The reason I am uncomfortable about him using the men's is not to do with paedophiles etc. I do understand statistics thank you. He is just nine though and just as for girls these years can be difficult.

I know my son and have spoken to him about this (not this thread, that would be weird ). He is uncomfortable and slightly embarrassed about the prospect of going into a room full of men, teenagers and boys he doesn't know and stripping off in front of them.

So I want to help my son. Thats it. Sorry if that has offended people. We have limited alternatives here. This is the closest pool to us (1 hour round trip) and we were 8 months on the waiting list.

Yes for us the best option would be unisex family rooms. Until puberty hits and he shuns me completely . Then am sure he will be more than happy to use the men's changing room.

Personally I think urinals should be banned, and everyone should be able to pass bodily functions in a private space. Male and female toilets should be exactly of the same design.

I agree elendon regarding toilets and urinals however a lot of men are not bothered and those that are don't want to campaign to get things changed. Should women have to campaign to change this? That's a genuine question not being goady.

Plenty of campsites in Europe have mixed sex changing rooms and open shower blocks, and no one bats an eyelid - other than first-time British visitors, of course.

The set up at our local pool is a changing village with unisex single cubicles, a few larger family cubicles and then one communal changing room for each sex. The family cubicles were always taken so I would take dd, 3 into the female communal changing room and there would often be men intherewho felt entitled to strip off, even if they were withtheirwives who could deal with the kids or even if their kids were over ten and could manage by themselves

I agree elendon regarding toilets and urinals however a lot of men are not bothered and those that are don't want to campaign to get things changed. Should women have to campaign to change this? That's a genuine question not being goady

A private members bill, perhaps ?

At our nearest unisex swimming pool the showers are open but you don't have to shower naked I have never seen that before.

They're really keen on cleanliness at the swimming pool here, I guess they think you can't shower properly with a swimming costume on. I think the kids must get used to changing and showering in their own gender changing rooms as they go to the pool for swimming lessons with school.

Personally I think urinals should be banned Why? Most men are comfortable with urinals, banning them would just make toilet queues even longer.

sorry having a son of 8 who has suspected asd, he comes everywhere with me and i dont really care what anyone has to say about it, id rather have a snotty comment that him leg it or drown in a pool.

There are more and more women using urinals too nowadays. No longer can the patriarchy dictate how people urinate.

I think 8 is an appropriate cut off, regardless of the boys needs. I would expect a family or disabled changing room to be available for any child older than that with sn that would prevent them just using the males unaccompanied.

Friends dh and I used to take it in turns to take my dd and their ds to swimming lessons. From being about 6 (but looked about 9) dd would go in the ladies and change alone, I did the same in reverse with their ds.

Because it's not about male changing rooms being full of peados. Or another mothers decision that her ds takes priority. It's about the right of prepubescent girls and teens to get changed without the embarrassment of a boy their age.

I did also once get pool staff to tell a mother her son was too old to be in the ladies.

Refuges are different in that it's not a choice to be there. But I can see an argument for keeping women with older sons separate from other women who do feel uncomfortable about teen lads.

There are more and more women using urinals too nowadays. No longer can the patriarchy dictate how people urinate

Bang on - sisters are standing up for themselves !

Crikey, isn't this thread horrific.

Firstly, I think changing rooms divided by sex are awful creations - call me a prude, but I don't want to see another persons bits hanging out.. Being in the same space as a group of women chatting in the nude for ten minutes isn't my cup of tea, so I use changing rooms whenever possible.

As a parent to two young boys, I find it appalling that I should be expected to send my young pre-pubescent children into a changing room unattended because some other parents feel that boys can do so when they turn the magical age of 8. I don't let my DS stare at others in the changing room because we aren't there to stare, we are there to change. Which we do. In the safety of a cubicle :) which annoyingly happens to be in a female changing rooms.

It's even more appalling that there are issues with children in refuges. I would hate to be in such a situation as to need the support of a refuge, but to then face the issue of how my children will be accommodated, can they be accommodated, should I leave them with my abuser instead?

I'm not fully clued up on how refuges work so I can't really comment too much I guess, but I would hope the there is support for families with boys, as much support as there is for families with girls - it's awful If this isn't the case.

Schwabischeweihnachtskanne excellent post.

sorry having a son of 8 who has suspected asd, he comes everywhere with me and i dont really care what anyone has to say about it, id rather have a snotty comment that him leg it or drown in a pool.

And what about the young girl in the changing rooms with ASD? She cannot get changed with a boy that age in the same room because she knows it's against the rules? She's in the right place, your son isn't.

Use the disabled facilities, you're entitled to.

Ridersinthestorm - the young girl with ASD can use a cubicle - or as someone else says use the disabled changing rooms. I refuse to send my 8/9 year old son into the male changing rooms on his own. My son does not stare - I turn him away and he faces the was and we take 2 mins. Not my fault his father can't take him swimming as he is at work. These are children. You wait unti grown men start using women's changing rooms as their right because they are MTF transgender. Then complain but not at my 8 year old thx. The world has gone mad.

The women's refuges problem can be fixed by having satellite scatter flats that are run by womens aid.

Plenty of women who don't have older boys don't want communal refuges either.

As to 'women's retreats' I personally wouldn't take a boy of school age/maybe up to 7ish, depending on the boy. But I have the luxuary of a babysitter. For women who don't-I don't have an answer??

itisbetter should all the nt preteens/ teens who feel uncomfortable having your son in there all hog the disabled changing too? Why do you feel an entitlement to make other people's girls feel uncomfortable because it suits you?
If your ds has sn, then you have every right to use the disabled changing room. If not your preference to keep him out of the appropriate changing room is just that, and your problem, not the problem of every young girl forced to put up with it.