Young dependent male children in women's only spaces?

[PrincessTeacake]

Long term lurker here, very infrequent contributer.

Circumstances over the last year have meant I spent most of my very little free time on Tumblr, for convenience's sake, and I fell into the radfem circles there. Every now and then there's a rift in the community over something and it all gets a bit childish because they are mostly young and quite reactionary. I stay out of it for the most part, but I wanted to get some (more sensible) opinions here on the latest rift.

Someone brought up the topic of little boys in women's only spaces (bathrooms, changing rooms, emergency shelters) and there was a lot of talk about how boys can't be trusted under any circumstances, that it was equally as bad as letting intact transwomen in, and naturally some of the mothers in the community got quite upset. There was a lot of anti-child rhetoric being thrown around and some harassment of the mothers.

What's the consensus here? I'm asking mostly for one of my online friends, she was very upset by this discussion and was on the receiving end of quite a bit of the bullying.

I'm on Tumblr, OP, what Radfem blogs would you recommend? I'm happy to show some support if you need it!

if we were telling mothers they are irrational to not want to send their girls unaccompanied into a male changing room at 8 they'd be up in arms - yet boys - fuck 'em. why? do you really believe 8yo male children are less vulnerable?

and at my male child now being compared to male to trans adults ffs.

thing is i actually am a radical feminist and yet even i am put off of returning to the feminist boards (used to be a frequent user years ago) by this thread.

the utter calousness towards single mothers of a young boy and the mocking and ridiculing of women being uncomfortable of the safety of male toilets and changing spaces (by women who don't even a single male to trans in an adult changing space) is shameful. 8yo boys, our boys, can just deal with it. adult women oh no the risk is to great.

PrincessTeacake a couple of people mentioned refuges before we all got obsessed with swimming pools :o Obviously a much more urgent issue!

Obviously if a mother couldn't take any boy children into a refuge with her that would be insane - not even a baby/ toddler/ preschooler? What is she supposed to do with them? Obviously that would lead to most women whose children happen to have been born male just staying with abusive partners, rather than abandon their tiny children!

Surely the Tumblr posters arguing for no male children in women's refuges are actually arguing for a situation that would create more male abusers, as those male children would remain, with or without their mother, with the abusive father and copy his behaviour, repeating the cycle of abuse, instead of having the chance to break it if their mum escapes to a refuge with them, especially if they are young enough or sensitive enough to the reality of the situation/ not brainwashed by the father and able to be "on their mother's side".

I think a lot of people have tried to justify it by saying they're worried about their daughters, not adult women. Apparently female children are more deserving of protection than male children of the same age.

Actually the refuge issue reminds me of a refugee issue...

We are in Germany, the state with the most refugees. Some of my fb friends volunteer at refugee reception centres, and others donate things and make in some cases very useful contributions and in others what seems like quite well meaning but misguided projects (there was a big thing on handbags for refugee women, and the people in actual contact pointed out that they already have far too much to carry and are having valuables confiscated in order to qualify to receive aid, but these "realists" were shot down by people wanting to give refugee women "a bit of luxury...")

There was a big burst of enthusiasm on our support for refugees fb page for only allowing women and boys under 12 into the country after the Cologne attacks... it sits uncomfortably with me as the mother of an 8 year old boy - but also a 10 year old girl... Obviously it is not ever going to be a real, workable option not to allow male refugees, but I was taken aback by the almost universal agreement that would be ideal. Awkward, difficult topic to think about...

OP, what do those who don't want boys in refuges suggest happens to the boys?

I suspect these women would expect the boys live with abusive fathers they probably think like father like son or some such shite

Elizabeth, those women are expected to either stay with their abusers or go elsewhere.

HoneyBadger.. I really hope you reconsider and do post here, I find your contributions really useful.

Suggest? Pfh! The most sensible solution coming from that side of the discussion was 'women should stop having children.' I should really have said that that would just mean more children born to those that don't ascribe to feminism and more baby boys raised mired in the patriarchy, but at that stage I knew we weren't dealing with any kind of logic. They were defending some truly awful rhetoric, talking 'I can't wait until your sons grow up to be abusers and you'll be like 'not my boy!'

It's mostly over now, I unfollowed the people that really disappointed me and I'm hoping its just young-reactionary-female hubris. I was a fecking eedgit in my twenties, I think I'm a bit more sensible now. Some of the mothers broke off to set up a new discussion group for radical feminist mothers.

To me the male separatism idea is bonkers. I do agree that women need their own spaces to get together (and I'm gender critical, I do believe that adult men should not have access to those spaces) but for the good of the human race we do need to stand with good male allies and raise our children to the best of our abilities to be good, fair people. For me, that means more men doing their share of the emotional labour and pulling their weight with the children and women expecting and demanding better of the men in their lives.

agreed but would add there also needs to be understanding of the women who do not have men in their lives and are raising their child/ren completely alone. when you exclude boys you totally exclude the single mothers of boys (and indeed the non single ones who get zero support with childcare from their partners anyway)

i'm finding the hypocrisy stunning also - your child doesn't read at 8 DON'T worry children develop differently. your child isn't ready to go alone into an unknown space full of stranger males naked - that's ridiculous he SHOULD do it and you're a crap parent because he isn't ready.

"the utter calousness towards single mothers of a young boy and the mocking and ridiculing of women being uncomfortable of the safety of male toilets and changing spaces (by women who don't even a single male to trans in an adult changing space) is shameful. 8yo boys, our boys, can just deal with it. adult women oh no the risk is to great."

Can I ask- where is the mocking and ridicule? Or the suggestion that adult women are at risk?

Is it possible that people are reading the extreme views the OP is quoting from her Tumblr excursion and attributing them to posters on here?

Bertrand on page 2 or so there was a flurry of "mothers of boys who fear sending their sons into the mens or boys of 8 who actually can't cope in the men's alone should stay at home for a few years" type posts... thread took a more reasonable turn again after that but there has been quite a lot of "an 8 year old should be able to..." posting throughout the thread... Perhaps those are what Honeybadger is referring to.

No one is saying that - if your 8 year old isnt ready, use the family or the disabled - ask the center staff for the best solution - just dont assume that its ok and girls should as usual be made to accomadate . Most kids are ready hence it being the age that in my experiance most leisure centers use. And as for women shelters its the lack of money for decent buildings and sufficient support workers that are at fault not femenists or indeed traumatised vunerable women who want a man fre space for just a short time.

Dragon people are saying it - Ridersonthestorm said at 07:29 "Then don't go swimming until you think he's old enough to go into the male changing room alone"

Yarh sorry - but a stupid think to take seriously surely? I have two with SN - nether visable and must say have never had problem staff have not been happy to sort out and mine have competed all over the country.

Its not a problem I personally have, but one I empathise with... Our preferred indoor pool has a huge unisex, all cubicle area - the only problem can be with getting a family changing cubicle as lazy or greedy single (as in currently unaccompanied and using the cubicle alone, not a comment on their relationship or parenthood status) people of both genders often emerge having got changed solo in a spacious family cubicle, meaning parents with children have to queue or try to squeeze into an individual cubicle with a child or two or three...) Even that no longer really affects me as my kids are no longer so little, but it shows that even "ideal" set ups fail at times... The outdoor pool we use has segregated changing but most people get changed alfresco anyway, as its a large park like area where people often spend the day and get changed or partially changed more than once...

Even though I don't have the issue I do have kids of both genders and think people are making something out of nothing thinking that having a boy who might possibly be 9 or 10, but could equally be a tall 7 year old, in a female changing area means girls are being told they are less important or have to accommodate - women are accommodating each other, some women are mothers, pre-pubescent children who are still dependant enough to need to be with their mother to get dressed are largely an extension of their mothers in this situation, because banning them is banning their mothers - a lot of feminists seem to want to discount the experience and legitimacy of mothers of dependant male children, and that is not IMO true feminism, it is a deliberately selective "easier" narrative.

I do also think that a lot of people must be misjudging the ages of some of the boys they see with their mothers in the women's changing area...

Reading this makes me feel really lucky the pools round here have good family changing areas.

I personally would like to see more mixed changing areas - with lockable cubicles and lockers etc in communal areas. That seems the only solution that would suit everyone.

I personally agree with Bertrand that men's changing areas are not as dangerous as some posters may think/feel.
Yes there is a very small risk but nothing in this world is risk free.

Thank you honeybadger. That's how I felt. Not a comfortable place to be.

I will hide this thread now (if I can work out how on my phone ).

Tilder before you go, I totally understand your viewpoint. And yes to honey badger.

I have too worked with sex offenders on a regular and longstanding basis. Unlike PP I would have no issue sending my 8 yr old into a male changing room at my local pool.

I have written reports on lots of offenders, read loads of CPS a packs about them and would still do it. There are people who pose risks to children in lots of places, not just swimming pools. Anyway most people aren't sex offenders. Men who attack children are usually known to the family as you probably know.

I have never known of a sex offender randomly attacking, flashing or photographing a child in a swimming pool. I have though known those who have attacked the paperboy or their friends kids, or their own children, stepchildren. I also ensure my kids are quite savvy about this stuff.

Ok I've read most of this thread but not every single post, so apologies if this has been covered already.

I agree that boys over 8 have no place in female changing rooms. I say that as a mother of boys, although they are too young for this to be an issue.

If as a parent you perceive the male changing rooms to be unsafe for your sons alone, why don't you accompany them in there? That way you are not allowing boys to invade female-only spaces.

I think I'd announce to the men present why I was there and assure them I'd be quick and discreet and get on with it.

Am I being hopelessly unrealistic?

I am very puzzled by people being upset enough to hide this thread-am I being incredibly stupid and insensitive?

Because men have a right to men only spaces too?