Young dependent male children in women's only spaces?

[PrincessTeacake]

Long term lurker here, very infrequent contributer.

Circumstances over the last year have meant I spent most of my very little free time on Tumblr, for convenience's sake, and I fell into the radfem circles there. Every now and then there's a rift in the community over something and it all gets a bit childish because they are mostly young and quite reactionary. I stay out of it for the most part, but I wanted to get some (more sensible) opinions here on the latest rift.

Someone brought up the topic of little boys in women's only spaces (bathrooms, changing rooms, emergency shelters) and there was a lot of talk about how boys can't be trusted under any circumstances, that it was equally as bad as letting intact transwomen in, and naturally some of the mothers in the community got quite upset. There was a lot of anti-child rhetoric being thrown around and some harassment of the mothers.

What's the consensus here? I'm asking mostly for one of my online friends, she was very upset by this discussion and was on the receiving end of quite a bit of the bullying.

My reason for being unlikely to come back is right here in the above posts.

It's the sense of proportion. My son is 9. His siblings are 4 and 7. We were innocently getting changed as a family.

No intention of impinging on anyone. No intention of making anyone uncomfortable. No intention of making anyone 'put up and shut up'.

Am just getting on with my life, doing stuff as a family. So I hadn't really caught up with them getting older. I guess I just don't really need all the extra baggage that's being hung on whether or not a 9 year old boy should get changed with his family or on his own. For an example of the baggage see the comments about trans above.

I do think there should be some flexibility on the rigid age 8 cut off - just as I think its right that kids are allowed to swim unaccompanied from age 8 only if they are able to swim ... not all kids are created equal, not all can cope with things at the same ages (SN or no SN or might have SN but haven't yet got a diagnosis, or is anxiety a SN, or what about a dispraxic 9 year old who is just too disorganised and clumsy to manage alone yet, but will be able to by age 10...)

I think the OP's title wording is worth looking back at - where the child is dependant and young their mother should be allowed to be with them, where she has no suitable male to take them into male changing areas/ toilets.

There is an obsession with the fairly random age of 8 - I agree my 8 year old boy is able to use the male changing / toilets unaccompanied. I agree with people saying there are some situations where I would not be willing to let him go into a male toilet (when my older son was 7 - but looked at least 9 - we got caught in a city center later on NYE than we meant to, and I took him into the ladies at the train station as I wasn't happy with him going into the mens as there were crowds of drunken people ... mostly young men... about. I didn't think he would be assaulted, but I thought he would be a lot more traumatised by walking through groups of drunk men than any woman would be by seeing a quiet young boy with his mum in the queue for a cubicle in the ladies. Sometimes it is the lesser of two evils).

Not all 8 year olds can swim - the fact mine can doesn't make me incapable of understanding that there are 8 year olds who can't, even ones whose parents may have paid for lessons for them, even NT ones. The same is true of getting changed alone - its not only about a fear of predators, its also the fact not every 8 year old is capable, even some without visible - or even diagnosed SN.

Telling a woman to stay home if her 8 year old son cannot navigate the men's changing room is anti woman or at best penalising a sub category of women. Nobody would ever tell a man he can't take his 8 year old daughter who is not capable of changing and organising herself without help swimming because men might not want her to walk to a cubicle in the men's changing room.

Of course there is a point at which the mother of a boy who still needs help needs to be able to access disabled changing - but people just need to give their heads a waggle if they are getting upset over a mother who needs to accompany a boy who might be 9, and they tell them-self in their outrage could even be 10 (or just a tall 7 year old...)

There is silencing of women on both sides going on in this thread. There are people vociferously defending women and girls' rights not to get changed in front of older male children (which is fair enough - as an eight year old I would have been mortified to get changed in front of my male class mates) but at the same time silencing women who have children, either shy, or with special needs, and minimising the real, if rare risk of sexual abuse and rape. I really don't think telling mothers "you can't go swimming for, say, two years or three years, or however, while you feel your son is too young to go into a men's changing room unaccompanied, but over the age of seven" is a solution - we spend a lot of time saying that, say, rape prevention literature shouldn't make women feel like they must modify their behaviour and accept no-go areas, yet here are a group of women saying mothers of sons should accept no-go areas - they can't take their sons swimming for several years.

How about we do't fall for the divide-and-conquer shit, and campaign instead for unisex "changing villages" with lockable cubicles? Or the system at my nearest pool of women's, men's and family sections?

I can only think of one local pool - and it's a small, privately run open air pool - which has genuinely communal changing rooms with no option to use a cubicle either in sex separated facilities, or within a communal village.

I do not put my wishes above those of other people. As I have said repeatedly, before this thread I hadn't even thought about it. We were just getting changed as a family.

I now realise that my son's presence may not be viewed as appropriate. That's fine. So I will make alternative arrangements. I am allowed though to be a little uncomfortable about the alternatives available for us. My son has value and worth too.

No I won't be starting a campaign for unisex changing. I think our local pool needs to look at cleanliness first. There is also no space for additional provision.

I am also not invested enough to do it.

"you can't go swimming for, say, two years or three years, or however, while you feel your son is too young to go into a men's changing room unaccompanied"

Surely anyone in this situation would just wrap a towel around their son's waist around the pool while he whips out his shorts and puts on his underwear. It's a complete non-issue for boys imho.

DrSeussRevived yes, sorry I agree an informal poll is illustrative - I actually prefaced with admitting it was me who pointed out that UK primary kids tend to get changed together until age 9 or 10 because I then somewhat contradicted myself by saying that at our school they have separate changing facilities available from age 6 :o due to the fact they have the community sports facilities (also used by adults after the school day) as part of the school campus... we are overseas anyway...

A quick google produced this article in the BMJ which states that in a study of primary schools in Sheffield:

"Twenty per cent of schools did not offer children any segregated changing facilities. Approximately 80% (82/102)) offered separate changing facilities for year 6, 62% (63/102) for year 5, 26% (27/102) for year 4, and approximately 13% (13/102) for year 3. Where separate changing was offered, only 12% (10/82) of schools had changing rooms. In 67% of schools (55/82) children were given the option of changing in the school toilets, 40% (33/82) were offered the option of changing in an empty classroom, and 11% (9/82) used the cloakroom as a changing area. Other options offered to children included the staff room, the quiet area of the classroom, and the school corridor. One school offered separate changing facilities consisting of the other children standing around individuals to provide a screen"

The article is suggesting separate changing facilities might be more appropriate because more children are starting puberty earlier, but does suggest that up to year 4 most children are getting changed together for PE, and a lot still are in year 5...

It's not an issue for me personally because as I say all my local pools are sensibly designed. But I'm getting increasingly angry on this thread to see that the entire edifice of male entitlement is being blamed on women - mothers - for being worried about keeping their children safe from male violence. And people are doing this in the name of feminism. It's about as sodding unfeminist as you can get in my books.

CoteDAzur it's the same for young girls too surely? Wrap a towel round them and whip off the costume. Why should just young boys not have proper changing rooms. I know many dads who will not take their daughters into male changing rooms. I have taken both of my boys into women's changing rooms but I have always put them into a cubicle mainly to give women and girls and my son some privacy.

But I'm getting increasingly angry on this thread to see that the entire edifice of male entitlement is being blamed on women - mothers - for being worried about keeping their children safe from male violence. And people are doing this in the name of feminism. It's about as sodding unfeminist as you can get in my books.

A very, very good point Lurcio

tilder I don't particularly think the presence of a 7 or 8 year old accompanied by his mother is an invasion of women's safe space- but on the other hand I don't particularly think there is any need for him to be there.

Nah - honestly ? If your son at 8 or what ever probably reasonable age (notoriously H&S conscious), your local facility states is too old for the womens changing rooms -then use the family rooms ir ask fir a compromise - if your son has SN then campaign or hell even just ask to be accomadated. As a pretty full on femenist - this is about in most cases being sensible and reasonable not the patriarchy or blame - just thinking about others and using reasonable judgment. And I have SN kids - if we are going somewhere new - in a truly radical way - I ring ahead and ask what the arrangements are. Never had a negative response to be honest and we swim and do alot of sports.

If that is to me my son is long past 8. I wouldn't have taken him into the female changing room at age 8 and I doubt he would have wanted to go

On the other hand denying a woman access to a refuge because she is accompanied by her teenage sons is indefensible.

No lucurio - lass. Just trying to say some stuff is worth getting femenist banner out for - some stuff is just common sense and just needs people to be reponsible and level headed. Lots of things to smash the patriarchy over.

Tilder- but you read the thread and though "Oh yes, wow, I hadn't thought of that- time to change the way we do things" which is great. I still don't know why you feel you won't come back.

What do people do on a beach? I'd say they use common sense!

It seems like I'm going to be the 'in my day we didn't do it like that' poster.

When I was 7 or 8 (late 60's) I would never go swimming with my parents, just with my mates.

I have wonderful memories of summer 1969 swimming just about every day in my local pool (about 1/2 a mile away). I would have been mortified to use the women's changing room

Yes I have thought 'time to do things differently'.

To make space for others. Which I will do as I have no wish or desire to make anyone feel uncomfortable when getting changed. I am aware how vulnerable people can feel.

There is however no consideration for how uncomfortable that makes me feel. Apparently I should be fine with it, or not take him swimming or campaign for better provision.

So someone else is entirely happy with their son using the men's changing room. Or whipping off a towel by the side of the pool. So I should be too. Despite the fact that for me the former is not something I am comfortable with or the latter, even if allowed, would be humiliating for my son.

Yes I am embarrassed that I hadn't thought or noticed this earlier. I guess hadn't noticed in my rush to get them in the pool for lessons and out again that my actions might offend someone. So yes I will change what I am doing.

This thread has just made me deeply uncomfortable. Is this what feminism is all about? A safe place for women provided she isn't bringing male children over the age of eight

If that's aimed at me, Lurcio, that wasn't my intent. I said upthread that family/unisex changing rooms are the best solution.

Unfortunately the concerns of both groups overlap. Will hide thread for a bit, then.

Swimming unsupervised is 7 here so long as they know how to swim.

Don't know about changing for PE in school - they use the gym which has changing rooms but the changing rooms aren't actually separated by gender so not sure what they do. I take DD to the gym for gym club and everyone changes together in one of the changing rooms, once some man was taking a shower in there when we came in and quickly went and hid round the corner of the shower area

"This thread has just made me deeply uncomfortable. Is this what feminism is all about?"

Well, sometimes, frankly, yes! Feminism isn't easy. It means thinking about all sorts of things we'd rather not think about, and challenging our own attitudes and assumptions.

I genuinely don't see why anyone would have a problem with a NT 8 year old going into the right gendered changing room, but I understand that some people do. I just think that the right of girls to have a woman only space, (and boys to have a men only space for that matter) is important enough for people to get over their anxieties. I also think that it's not fair on men (not a phrase I have used much in my life to be honest!) to give children the idea that they are likely to be paedophiles.

BertrandRussell it is not all about anxieties and insecurities though - the "NT" thing isn't always clear cut, and there are children with anxiety or possibly undiagnosed SN who can't quite organise themselves to get changed and their things put away in a locker and find their way through to the pool at 8, in an unfamiliar setting especially... Plenty of 8 year olds would struggle to go alone into a changing room and get sorted. Plenty wouldn't - mine wouldn't now, but he was quite anxious a couple of years ago and looked 8, although he wasn't... I remember a time when he would pretend to have been to the toilet, if pushed (usually by DH) to "stop being so stupid and just go into the mens on your own, you don't need mummy all the time" - it wasn't about the mens being full of men, per se, it was about it being a very unfamiliar, alien space full of adults he didn't know ... he would go in and come straight back out claiming he'd used the toilet in 0.2 seconds, and then squirm in agony til finally marched back with a parent to one toilet or another.

I can imagine a child being like that at 8 - I am glad it was just a phase for mine, but the phase might last longer for others or actually not be a phase and be part of a bigger picture of anxiety or disabilities the parents haven't quite figured out / got diagnosed. Plenty of high functioning autism, for example, isn't diagnosed until well after the age of 8... and as I said before things like dispraxia can mean a child might not cope at 8, might at 9 or 10... but hardly justify using a disabled changing room especially if there are "more" disabled pool users....

"In the old days" kids took themselves to the pool at 6 and would have been mortified to be accompanied or whatever - yes. I am quite a fan of old fashioned child hood in some ways - my kids play out, get themselves to school by bus, stay home alone, at ages I think appropriate (usually younger than MN says) but I appreciate not every kid can do that at identical ages. Way back when presumably a lot of kids then just didn't go to the pool, couldn't do the bus journey, would have lost their pool entrance fee or got off at the wrong stop long before negotiating the changing room, so stayed at home and missed out, as some posters advocate mothers of certain boys should do now...

I think boys of 8/9/10 should be in their own loos and changing rooms (10 feels better for me but i am happy with the others)

I am very disappointed that a number of posters on here seem to be dismissing a womans fears of sexual assault or rape...of their boys

Of course not all men are rapists or child molesters but there are cases of boys being raped or assualted in male toilets

I appreciate that older boys shouldnt be in womens spaces...i agree with this completely, but it feels like some people are saying that it doesn't happen so stop making a fuss

And again i know that its not all posters and maybe its just my impression of the tone

OP back again, sorry for the delay.

Tumblr is sort of a blessing and a curse, it's so convenient and doesn't annoy me the way facebook does, this has been the first real problem I've had with it. I've been a nanny for well over a decade and my job is part and parcel of why I turned to radical feminism, but when push comes to shove I would prioritize the needs of a child regardless of sex over the needs of an able-bodied adult woman.

Wrapped up in this debate was the fact that a lot of these women arguing for banning all male children of all ages are American and I've gotten a strong anti-children vibe from a lot of my interactions with the USA. I was comparing that to the UK and Ireland based radfems I knew, some of who are mothers themselves and some of whom have brought their male children to women's retreats after making sure it was okay with the rest of the group (cut-off age was twelve, seems fair enough to me.) Irish culture seems to bend over backwards to accommodate children in a lot of ways. Even the most anti-child person I know in Ireland, a person who is adamant they never want children themselves and doesn't like to be anywhere near them, will interact nicely when there's one nearby. It's how we've been raised.

I know this discussion was leaning more on the side of changing rooms and bathrooms (most of our local ones are private family stalls and the cut-off for male children in the women's is eight) but the Tumblr discourse was more about women's retreats and emergency DV shelters. I see the DV shelters as the most urgent qualifier, what mother in full possession of her wits would flee an abuser but leave her dependant child in his custody? How many women stay with dangerous men because they don't want to make their children the next target?

(Note: I did know of a woman who left her child in the custody of her abusive father and enabling mother when she left, but they had her brainwashed and ground down from an early age and she genuinely thought it was the better option.)