Feminist pub XIX: The Bluestocking meanders into May

[YonicScrewdriver]

We're running at about six weeks per pub at the moment! So if you want chat with a feminist flavour, or with fellow feminists, or just want to admire our patriarchy blaster cannon and goat - welcome!

Last pub Here

Dunno. I think a lot of what goes on in certain parts of mumsnet is either weird or wrong or rude or unhelpful. So it's entirely fair that other denizens of mumsnet think I'm mad/letting women down/a man hater/whatever... I'm ok with it. I'm not a public service, I'm just exploring ideas on an Internet forum.

I do find it ironic that:

• one way to know if a class of people (eg women) is not privileged is when the actions of one member of that class are taken as representative of the whole class (eg expecting one woman to be a role model for all women)
• the accusations levelled at FWR often relate to us not being good enough at representing what all women think about feminism, in simple and appealing enough terms to allow us to sell feminism to the world. Which I do see being born as a view in point 1 above, because as has been tirelessly pointed out, no one expects the same of the other boards eg can you imagine requiring S&B to be nice to everyone about their fashion choices?

Sigh.

People aren't so quick to describe you as a fat, hairy man hater

I don't think anyone did on those threads. This seems to get said a lot to deflect criticism - feminism's very own straw man argument perhaps?

Have been a bit out of touch with other threads. I generally avoid posting on the trans threads because I haven't formed my views yet but reading them can be quite enlightening. I don't tend to do much on the why-I'm-not-a-feminist threads. Should I?

I find a lot of the comments about 'mn feminists' and FWR quite mystifying. I feel perfectly happy hanging out here even though far from toeing some party line, a lot of the times I don't know what that line might be. I still don't think I know what a 'radfem' is FFS! Maybe I've missed out on some of the more controversial threads - sometimes its just because by the time I've noticed an interesting title, it's got too many posts to catch up on.

For me it's the "boys are so different to girls" threads. I'm on one at the moment (I actually thought the OP was initially going to ask about fiddling with his willy as DH only ever says "but he's a boy" when I try and gently prevent DS from doing that!) and while the OP admits she couldn't think how to put it there are all the other posters moaning about how "but you MUST KNOW that boys and girls are SO DIFFERENT".

The trouble is, girls and boys end up "so different". I get the impression there's this idea that feminism refuses to acknowledge any differences whatsoever. No, we recognise there are differences, we just don't accept that they're innate, and we have a valid theory as to how they become different - socialisation.

Anyway, DC is all about the running and the jumping and the climbing and the things with wheels. DN loves sitting quietly and tidying up. They've got the same bits. What should I categorise them as?

'What should I categorise them as?'

'Children' works for me.

God, it's a frequent topic in my family that my 2 kids are so different (like completely different, chalk and cheese, shock to the system different) - they're both boys though.......

so from my huge sample, I definitely think that it's children that are the main problem with the lack of consistency, not genitals.

Children it is! Possibly if having twenty seven kids were still the norm there'd be more of an understanding that differences don't neatly divide down sex lines. (That sentence sounds wrong, but "gender lines" also seems wrong given the context.) If most people only have one or two or three then most people aren't likely to spend enough time round enough small people to realise that.

Hello pub! Not drinking at the moment, but get me a gin and tonic and I'll stare at it for an hour. Pretend drinking is fine whatever time of day, I presume?

Just wanted to pop in and say that as people seem to treat me like I've just done something unthinkable if I say anything remotely feminist in rl, I do enjoy that there's a place where other people want to talk about issues. You guys challenge my preconceptions and often express what I'm thinking in a way that expands it further. I'm happy to talk about everyday issues and more philosophical stuff, so I think it's great that people with different interests all post here.

I've been on threads on mn before, where I've felt it was a bit cliquey and that new people weren't really welcome, but not here. I don't really have a problem with mn being like that - it's just an internet forum, and if I don't like it I don't have to read or post, but just wanted to say that the feminism boards seem to come up against more criticism of that kind than other areas.

Thanks Girl.

I can understand why FWR feels like a bunch of people that "know" each other... because a lot of us have been here long enough to "know" each other! I try very hard to notice new names, especially in the pub, and say "hi", but I doubt I see everyone.

I'm guessing other topics can be the same - like step parents has some frequent posters, as do politics and in the news. At the end of the day we are all on MN to chat about our various interests with whatever level of knowledge (or not!) we posess.

Enough chat, here's your g&t!!

SweetAndFullOfGrace I agree it appears to me that women who identify as feminists/post on FWR or whatever have to live up to unfair expectations.
Which is why I tend not to label myself as a feminist since it feels like if you do, you have to be this perfect spokeswoman.

Thanks, the G&T looks great. Maybe I'll sniff it in a minute.

I probably can't find a poster saying the exact words "fat, hairy man hater" but I've seen plenty of people say things like "I can't be a feminist because I shave my legs". There's a very clear implication that feminists don't shave and must be hairy. It makes things unnecessarily personal, IMO.

I've said it before but there's a few regulars you see on feminist threads and they come on to talk about how mean the FWR bunch are and how they put people off engaging on the threads. My experience is that some non-feminists put me off engaging on the threads. I worry about posting and expressing a feminist viewpoint and being attacked by posters who have taken against FWR.

thatstoast, my DD1 said, in response to me asking her if she was a feminist, "no, I'm not a hairy, dungaree wearing, lesbian man hater". :o Approx 12 months later she posted on Facebook about an experience of discrimination she suffered, and it was blatant, to which I responded "see, you are a feminist ".

Now she has a daughter of her own she sees more clearly how gendered things are becoming for children, and she thinks it's worse than when she was a pre-schooler like her DD. And she's right, clothes and toy manufacturers are pigeon holing our kids and many mothers (and fathers) go along with it.

Hi GirlSailor, the pub is inclusive, like the rest of FWR, but with fewer arguments. Though I did get told off once for mansplaining. :o Enjoy your air G&T.

Hello GirlSailor - welcome to the pub. I find it friendly in here. It is amazing how quickly you get to know the regulars.

Oh I know there are expectations Briar. I ignore them

What can we do really? None of us is the feminism All Mother (insert deity reference of choice) and there is no simple single right answer to any of this stuff. We're just having a conversation, trying to move forwards.

Hello GirlSailor, welcome to the pub

Oh, Innocent, that's true and it makes me sad.

FWIW, atm, this pub is probably the place I feel safest posting on though all my posts are v infrequent. I feel I'm less likely to be torn to shreds here than anywhere else on MN.

There's some lovely threads on MN for specific support/interests, they aren't the ones that ever show up in discussions of the day or Most Active so they don't attract trolls or goaders.

Um, I think Polly Vernon had an intern post on that thread about her book.

I'm half tempted at the moment to start a 'feminist myths and misconceptions' thread though it would be a TAAT and I'm sure it would go horribly wrong. Or 'why I do identify as a feminist' (perhaps a pity there weren't two parallel threads but I suppose that would have drawn sides. ) But some of what people come up with as what they think feminism means or what feminists are like (all of them) totally mystifies me. The only place I've seen 'feminists want superiority' is from non or anti-feminists for instance.

Hope you don't mind me dropping in here,

errol
But I'd just like to say, as someone who commented on the why you don't identify as a feminist chat thread. I think...

your idea of starting a thread for why you identify as a feminist, in chat. With the same rules off not being challenged. Would be a wonderful idea.
I would definitely read it, and it could be the a very good way of dispelling the myths.