Feminist pub XIX: The Bluestocking meanders into May

[YonicScrewdriver]

We're running at about six weeks per pub at the moment! So if you want chat with a feminist flavour, or with fellow feminists, or just want to admire our patriarchy blaster cannon and goat - welcome!

Last pub Here

Hi twart and welcome to the pub.

I too do not think feminists are aiming for female superiority. But I also think that the use of that phrase (and see also "things have gone too far in the other direction") is tacitly acknowledging that the status quo is not equality.

hi, yonic Yes I liked what you had to say on the chat thread.

Which is why I think Errols suggestion of a parallel thread would be great. Not a thread to pick over poster from the original.
But to state why you identify as a feminist, and your values. Because people could then actually see how simular / same our views can be. Then some off those myths can be put to bed,

If people can see that the extremists views really are in the minority rather then the majority. More people may feel inclined to be identified as a feminist.

Twart, anyone can drop in here - it's a pub not a club.

I really need to get down to some work today which probably means I need to avoid MN entirely (too many interesting things at the moment with GCSEs and the Charles Clarke religion in schools guest post) so I'm not going to start a thread but if someone else has the time and inclination please feel free.

Have been awol for a few days (PILs visiting from overseas... for a LONG stay!), and haven't read the thread in Chat, but I found StormyBrid's point really interesting:

I was a bit miffed by the suggestion on that thread that no normal person would even give the idea of PIV=rape brainspace. It's actually a very interesting springboard for a discussion on the nature of consent under patriarchy! One doesn't have to agree with the statement to understand its internal logic.

I've found a few times that in conversations with people who seem pro-feminist or even identify as feminist themselves that even getting near discussing the more stark issues seems to be a sticking point. They go "oh no, I'm not that kind of feminist..." I don't necessarily agree with the PIV=rape argument but for me it is, as you say, an interesting springboard. It's certainly made me think about the way that society has constructed 'proper sex' as something which is often much more pleasurable for men (or, at least, more uncomplicatedly pleasurable).

In other news, in the midst of coming up for air from PIL-hosting I've come across Boris Johnson's comments r.e. Tim Hunt. Urgh.

On one of the hunt threads I saw that the person who's done the crying research said the only workplace study he's done, more men cried than women. (though that was psychotherapists not people being bollocked). But anyway, blows a bit of a hole in Boris's (newfound?) fondness for scientific facts.

Brian Cox is defending Hunt now too.

One of my little self-projects for the year was to read more and engage with more feminist literature. As part of that I've downloaded pretty much everything Andrea Dworkin has written, and am really really enjoying.
Also have Delusions of Gender, The Beauty Myth, Meat Market and The Equality Illusion in a pile waiting to be read. Feel like I did when I was a teenager; just devouring any book I could get my hands on.

Boris's point doesn't really address Hunt's remarks anyway, which suggest that the crying is a reason that women should not be in the lab. I am not a scientist and have not spent much time in labs, but I seriously doubt that constantly boo-hooing women are a big impediment to getting the work done.

In the course of a couple of chemistry degrees and then some time attached to a lab, no, I can't say I ever saw anyone crying, certainly not as the result of criticism. There were a few people falling in love with each other, but mostly with happy outcomes. Though as far as I can recall, in all the couples whether they started at the same level or not it would be the woman who sacrificed career progression for family and the bloke who rose up. The wife of the head of the lab raised 4 kids, worked there on a series of temporary contracts, was still Mrs until people realised it was ridiculous as she was a leader in her field (despite her non-orthodox career!) - honory doctorate was rapidly followed by a chair and FRS. And one of the nicest human beings I've ever met.

I started out in Biology as an undergrad and cried in a practical exam once because officially, we didn't need goggles, but unofficially, there were a lot of smelly chemicals that I suspect the safety elves would be all over these days.

ifyourehoppy

Delusions of Gender is my favourite book to recommend to people who still believe in the whole 'men are from mars' spiel about innate gender difference. Indeed I would quite like to throw it at recommend it to Boris Johnson.

It truly worries me that a person who has more than a spitting chance of being the PM of the UK explicitly believes that women have 'different skills'.

To be fair to Brian Cox, if you listen to the full interview and not just the edited highlights, he was a bit more even handed. And after hearing some scurrilous gossip about Dr Hunt (I work in universities and know people who know him) I wouldn't be surprised if UCL were happy to have an excuse to terminate their association with him.

I cry in the workplace on occasion but it's always behind a closed door.

It's generally from frustration. Men can raise their voices without being judged. If I do, I get called aggressive and strident. Men can get their point across, I get talked over. Men can forge bonds at their golf events that I don't get invited to. Men can bang their fists on the desk and be forgiven for being passionate - I'd get asked if it was that time of the month and never taken seriously again. Men are allowed to take their shit home with them, I'd get told to stop being so bloody unreasonable.

Crying is sometimes my only release. I'd prefer to have a punchbag in the corner. We seriously discussed whether we should sacrifice some space to fit in gym equipment to give staff the opportunity to relieve stress and the consensus is that it may well work.

What does everyone else do when you're just having one of those days or one of those meetings ?

YY Blistory.

I feel that people should be grateful that I sometimes go and hide in the toilet and cry. Otherwise they would be DEAD.

I know nothing about her but what I just read in an interview about her book - but good god www.aziahmed.com/ - 4'11'' muslim woman from a traditional family who joined a SAS reservists training pilot scheme - and made it through until the scheme was cut (including breacon beacons marches etc)

That's a role model for girls!

"Let's have yet another work social at 5pm!"

No really, let's not. And let's not have all our work socials on a Friday because although there are only two part time professional workers in our office, there are also three part time admin people and of those 5 part timers, 4 don't work Fridays. And 2 (me and one other) have children to pick up. At 5.30. And all those part time workers are... yep... women.

Let's not have big plans for away days and nights out. Why not have tea-and-cake or lunch regularly? Then some people may be able to make some of them, and if they are regular we can plan. Is this not workable?

Let's invite everyone for beers at the last minute then pout if people can't come.

I can do beers. I just need a few days' notice so that DH has it on his calendar to pick up/swap lifts to beavers etc...

Tea and cake sounds fabulous but there are a lot of grumpy old men who would probably think it was too girly.

And there is a lot of presenteeism too and anyone who has time to go and relax in the working day can't have enough to do (current line manager, who is moving to a different role and not a second too soon, is very fond of one-upmanship on how BUSY he is and how he doesn't have a SECOND to himself and he's always answering emails at 11pm and if you aren't then you aren't DOING ENOUGH).

But funnily enough most of the less old but still grumpy men find time to play squash/other masculine sporty things at lunchtime.

(And we have another work social planned which is slightly more of an "impress important visitors" one - though thankfully not obligatory - which is later in the evening, generally easier for me as my DCs go to bed early. But those are completely useless for the 2 or 3 colleagues who commute long distances, and this one has had a "let's all have a drink beforehand" tagged on to it. I slightly get the point of having these later in the evenings as when important visitors have to stay overnight it's nicer for them to have someone to talk to in the evenings, though).

Yes. So what's wrong with, say, coffee at 11, every first Wednesday of the month, or lunch every first Thursday of the month, or something like that? Get a core group of people. They make sure a small group always turns up. Everyone else knows when and where it is and make plans to turn up. Is there something wrong with such a plan? Why think big when life is made up of small things?

xpost

I have no objection to last-minute things, when Important Visitors turn up or things like that. It just seems to be utterly ridiculous for a group of highly intelligent and organised men not to be able to solve a little problem of getting together. The NCT ante-natal and post-natal groups manage with a lot more unpredictability...

Nothing at all LordCopper.... we actually tried a Ladies who Lunch a while back (but people stopped coming). But not just for Ladies.

I work from home but I get the general emails - they do have in-hours social events, it can be done!

Things like 'breakfast Thursday' or a fish&chip lunch on a Friday or a bbq. Tea and cakes or coffee mornings figure. (They recently had a decorated cupcake competition, won by a bloke from IT). Events do seem to be planned ahead. This is a scientific software company, not the most obviously family-friendly outfit.
I guess it started as a small startup, lots of young post docs but they grew up and so did the company.

Most of my colleagues have children. They also have wives.

A lot of mine do too. Evidently they actually like to spend time with them.

Our company ethos maybe was helped by one CEO who had a rule that he left at 5 to get home to his family. I think some of our senior HR may date from his time. He was bloody good and blew presenteeism out of the water.