Men have done such a number on us that even women don't even know what rape is

[cailindana]

Now I know Judy Finnegan is not a paragon of intellectual prowess.

But still, I would never have thought such stupidity could fall from her lips: www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-29598732

She said the rape was "not violent." So what was it then? Friendly? Enjoyable? Just a little game?

How how how how how do we live in a world where a woman can't recognise the extreme violence of having your body used by another person?

No, sulking in adulthood is not normal, it's extremely childish and manipulative.

But I do understand more where you're coming from now Brighton and actually I'm sorry if I was a bit harsh on you - I'm getting the impression you've been treated very badly by people close to you.

I don't sulk, it's really not in my nature - I get bored too easily

I can understand sulking over an argument or something, I suppose.

But I think sulking about not getting your own way when it involves penetrating someone else's body is outrageous behaviour - and could only be done by someone who thinks he has rights over someone else's body.

I would also say it was not normal for adults to sulk to get their own way / when they don't get their own way in relationships.

I wonder if the difference of opinion here is due to some posters having been in really bad relationship/s and assuming that this is normal and the way it is universally.

There is certainly an aspect of, when people minimise poor / terrible behaviour, it can be because if they don't they have to accept that their own relationships are abnormal / poor.

I have a friend who has a sulky partner, which I find bizarre.

She has never told me he does it over sex though.

S/He's MRA, I think, turbo. Gave it away using the term 'ad-hom' - they always use that when people pull them up on thinking men are entitled to sulk/ bully/ abuse women until they allow them access to their bodies. It's standard.

you see stuff on the relationships topic sometimes "he hasn't spoken to me for six weeks". it's fucking appalling

Åh well. To engage with stupidity is only advisable in small chunks, and I've had my fill for the week.
Still, it is useful for making own thinking clearer, so thank you Brighton.

Good for lurkers too I think turbo. I think if someone is in a dreadfully sexually abusive relationship - where her partner whines, sulks, bullies and badgers her for sex- but thinks this is normal, and all men do it, then reading threads like this may help her to see that it's not acceptable. So it can be a good thing.

Great work for the lurkers, though ;-)

Snap!

Turbonerd, you being offended is unfortunate but I'm not sure if you think it means I should change my opinion?

i don't think anyone here expects you to change your opinion

there may be many lurkers who are helped by the fact that many people find your opinions offensive, however

I have to say, some of the people of here have the strangest opinions of men! Good night

Men who sulk and bully women into sex - I stand by my opinion of them. Rapists.

If your experience of men is that it is normal to bully women into sex - then you have a problem. If you're a man that does so - then doubly so. Goodnight!

We have the strangest opinions of men . We're not the ones saying sulking is normal and OK!

So Brighton, why would someone pressurise another person into having sex?

I don't have strange opinions of men, my dp is great. My four boys are amazing and my 15 yr old is growing into a fine young man.

I know many fabulous men. I am saddened and depressed when I read of the behaviour that some women put up with/View as normal from their partners.

I have what I consider normal expectations with regards the behaviour I expect from people. Not people I expect the same standards from men and women.

Treat others as you wish to be treated yourself. That's quite simple I think.

Have just caught up with the thread... and blimey!

I never cease to be amazed that people accuse feminists of hating men when we have examples of non feminists like Brighton who really despise them and have absolutely zero respect for them or their abilities.

Men can tell when a woman isn't into having sex with them. It's REALLY obvious and you'd have to be spectacularly stupid, bad in bed or a rapist not to be able to tell. Even on a ONS, even when drunk. It's that obvious.

Adults really shouldn't sulk when they don't get their own way. Being pissed off with your partner is one thing, sulking like a toddler because your partner didn't want sex is pathetic. I am really sorry you have experienced this Brighton, but it is pathetic.

A man who bullies his partner into sex by sulking, shouting, not stopping or whatever is a twat and if not an actual rapist, is displaying some deeply disturbing rapey behaviours. If a woman sees that as normal sexual behaviour it suggest that she has had a series of really bad relationships or that she has been socialised to believe that men have 'needs' that must be met by women, even if those women are unwilling... How Victorian!

The sad thing about this thread is that people have grown weary of it. Many will have clicked off of it because of the perception that 'the feminists' are probably slagging of all men with gay abandon, and the other side are rape apologists so it's pointless wading in...opinions will never be changed... complete apathy from many I expect.

I don't understand that whilst women are being raped and abused and dominated by men in FAR greater than numbers than men are by women, and whilst society is geared up to protect male interests to the point that Judy and others like her view things from such a male biased perspective whilst believing they are sympathetic to the plight of their own gender, we still have men and women arguing the bloody toss about whether the poor old non-rapist men are being represented fairly.

Why argue about whether being a bit sulky is okay, when the point is that women the world over are having sex they don't want because of this?

Why argue about the idea of change to 'enthusiastic consent' as opposed to proving no consent given when rapes go largely unreported, and men are getting away with sexual force and rape time and time again and the legal and justice system has next to no impact on this?

Why argue at all about any of the valid changes proposed to empower women when women everywhere fear attack, rape and absue and think about this even when catching a bus, choosing their clothing, walking with their children, taking a run, expressing their sexuality..?

Now is not the time to leap to the defence of all the lovely men out there, or even the rapey kind. It IS the time to defend women's right to a sense of freedom and safety in everday living by bringing to account all the men who deny women that safety and ability to live their lives without fear.

As a lurker, can I delurk to say thanks for a really enlightening thread? Like many of you, I have a lovely DH and two DSs who are in their twenties. None of them would behave in a "rapey" way with their partners. My DSs have often discussed these issues with me and DH. We are very open about such matters.

Indeed Buffy - but I meant more 'why argue over the detail for the sake of making it harder for women to prove their case in a court of law' as opposed to why have the discssion at all iyswim?

What it depressing is that posters think being badgered, pestered for sex is normal and if the women eventually consents then hey that's ok

I think it IS normal in a lot of households & that is why the woman don't call it what it is....because they don't want to think of their partners as rapists.

They don't care of they are being systematically raped, by coercion, as long as we don't call their partner a rapist, it's ok!

I think it IS normal in a lot of households & that is why the woman don't call it what it is....because they don't want to think of their partners as rapists.

Agreed. For those women, rape happens to other people, to women who drink too much and wear short skirts and are sluts, not to naice middle class women married to naice middle class professional men. It's all so bloody awful and sad, and rape culture has to answer for it all.