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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men have done such a number on us that even women don't even know what rape is

597 replies

cailindana · 13/10/2014 20:56

Now I know Judy Finnegan is not a paragon of intellectual prowess.

But still, I would never have thought such stupidity could fall from her lips: www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-29598732

She said the rape was "not violent." So what was it then? Friendly? Enjoyable? Just a little game?

How how how how how do we live in a world where a woman can't recognise the extreme violence of having your body used by another person?

OP posts:
differentnameforthis · 16/10/2014 22:32

BlueberryWafer But why does his need for sex trump your need to be left alone?

Why do YOU have to give into his whims,
Why does he have to push your boundaries.

Why can't he back the f off & respect that you are tired!!!

WHY?

differentnameforthis · 16/10/2014 22:36

PuffinsAreFicticious I agree...I have a friend who lets her dh rape have sex with her while she is asleep. It happens often from what she says.

He will often tell in the morning.

I see this as rape, but they have a understanding that he is allowed to do this.

1] why does he want to have sex with while she is asleep
2] what does he actually get out of having sex with a unresponsive partner
3] why is her enjoyment not important
4] just why!

turbonerd · 17/10/2014 07:35

I'd say the whole point with discussing issues is that you do want people to change their opinions. That is why facts and anecdotes are shared and Scenarios
discussed. You want to share different Points of view and
experiences that may let people think
about things in a new way.
Examples are many: the abolition of slavery, votes for women, the belief that the Earth is flat etc.
Central in this discussion is the belief that one person is entitled to sex with another person. I reject that.
Then came the issue of law and court cases. Very few cases of rape get reported, few of them will have the cps prosecute, and then fewer still are convicted. So that part is not a priority of discussion in my eyes. First the view that sex is needed, expected, owed etc must be challenged and changed.

turbonerd · 17/10/2014 07:41

This thread has been uplifting in many ways. I've enjoyed reading the posts that are well argued, and it has been a good exercise in dealing with circular thinking.

cadno · 17/10/2014 09:00

Why argue over the detail for the sake of making it harder for women to prove their case in a court of law?

There is a principle in law called Blackstone's. "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer". There have been others in history have taken quite the opposite view.

Who knows which is right, especially when you then ask 'Better for who ?'

cadno · 17/10/2014 09:19

Turbonerd Central in this discussion is the belief that one person is entitled to sex with another person. I reject that.

Rather than it being central - I think the vast majority, if not all, reject that too - I've not read all of Brighton's post, but I'd be surprised if this was his position ?

scallopsrgreat · 17/10/2014 10:16

I dint think we know that. S/he is carefully not answering questions like that.

turbonerd · 17/10/2014 10:48

I have not been able to make out thaT Brighton rejects that idea. Happily most on the thread do, I agree.
And then there was some back and forth on which degree of pressure to have sex would be acceptable. None,
is my answer.
The phrase expectation of sex was used by you, Cadno. I was a bit harsh on that, we do of course have expectations of things happening in a relationship. It is when expectation tips over in pressure and entitlement things go awry, and the difference is not that easy to spot to start with.

After that perhaps it was more about the meaning of words. Cadno, you Said expectation to sex in relationships. I was a bit harsh there, because my experience has

turbonerd · 17/10/2014 10:50

Ignore last paragraph, phone going haywire.

MyEmpireOfDirt · 17/10/2014 11:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

YonicScrewdriver · 17/10/2014 11:21

Yup.

turbonerd · 17/10/2014 11:32

Thank you Empire, that is what I have tried to say.

cadno · 17/10/2014 11:33

Turbonerd, MyEmpire and Yonic

re:expectation compared with entitlement. I'm in total agreement with you

PuffinsAreFicticious · 17/10/2014 11:36

Really good explanation Empire, thanks.

BurnBrighterThanTheSun · 18/10/2014 01:00

I am very late coming to this thread, but I think the changes required are more about society's attitudes than the law. There is plenty of space within the current laws for coercion, bullying and threats to be taken into account as consent under duress, rather than valid consent, I believe a court of law would consider any of these if evidence of them was brought forward.

However that doesn't change the fact that most rape victims will never take their case to a court of law, to have the facts of the matter tried. If we're using theoretical scenarios, like theft, it is the difference between scenario a) proving someone took your purse at knife-point, whilst inflicting some harm to you, leaving bruises and physical scars and scenario b) someone you invited to sleep on your sofa, took your purse (but they say you agreed to lend them the money so it's ok).

Scenario a) is provable by forensic evidence, scenario b) is about who is more convincing before the jury. Added to that, is the fact that most people in scenario b) feel embarrassed for inviting this person in and giving them the opportunity to commit their crime, thus being far less likely to report it.

I have taken a fresh look at past events in my life, viewed through the feminist perspective, and realised I have been raped (even though it is hard for me to identify myself as a rape victim). I have always been a strong, independent woman, who got her own way and did not do what men expected/wanted, which makes it far easier for me to identify as a woman who got too drunk and had some very unsatisfying, unplanned sex than someone who was raped.

It should always be an 'enthusiastic yes' and I have had several other drunken experiences (2 with people I was already friends with and 1 ONS) where I feel unequivocally consent was given, despite an actual discussion not taking place, every action was reciprocal, we kissed each other, we undressed each other, etc. The other person I got into a similar situation with (despite him being a long term friend at that stage in my life) I have always felt uncomfortable about, I can't remember the exact events so I'm not certain I didn't reciprocate his advances, but the first thing I remember (after him and another friend coming back to my flat -other friend must have left at some point) is blanking out and then being on the living room floor with him on top of me (fully clothed) and then there is another blank, next thing I remember we were naked in bed and as he was already having sex with me, it seemed too late to say no. I asked that he stopped and put a condom on, as I was more perturbed by having unprotected sex with someone, than just having unasked for, unwanted sex.

I would never have reported this to the police, as I am aware that asking him to have sex using a condom would be viewed as consent, so there would never have been any point from a legal aspect. Regardless of that, the fact we were both part of a wider friendship group, would have made it impossible for me to report. I had a boyfriend at the time, so there was a large amount of nudge, nudge, wink, wink at the guy with the cheeky smile being more appealing than the steady boyfriend (from the people who did find out - the people he boasted to), no-one who knew both of us would ever have believed it was rape and it would have been only me on trial (was I lying to cover up being unfaithful?), not just to a jury, but to everyone I knew.

I don't think the guy who did this to me ever looks at himself and feels like a rapist. Up until recently I viewed it as a 'we were both pretty drunk' moment, it is only now that I think he was considerably less drunk than I was, I have passed out/ been in similar situations with other men and woken in the morning wearing all my clothes, having not had sex with anyone, which makes me think that this was something he did to me, rather than a situation I chose to get myself into, whenever I got absolutely wasted (which I don't do anymore but used to do far too often).

Dervel · 18/10/2014 05:40

I agree about this requiring a wider societal shift in thinking and in attitude. Peering at the issue from the other side of the fence it is difficult (at least for me) to empathise directly trying to apply some of the the experiences I have had personally to what I have read on here.

Having said that one of my first long term relationships left a very powerful impression on me. The woman I was dating had confided that in a prior relationship she had woken up to find her partner already well into the process of intercourse. The crucial part for me was the blind panic she communicated to me as having experienced.

Her genuine and authentic reaction is an indicator that something is wrong here, and it is obviously not uncommon. I don't particularly care what label we put on it, and in fact if I can dare to suggest sometimes we (as in society, not this thread/forum), can get bogged down in arguing the semantics, it actually obsfucates the simple truth that something happened that shouldn't have, and left someone with an experience they had to work past that in any sane world they shouldn't have to.

We should be free to navigate the sexual landscape free from fear. Now I don't have the science or references to back this up, but it seems patently obvious that more men enjoy this freedom than do women. I don't see this is an unreasonable expectation for all people. Putting the legal question to one side for just a moment (but I do for the record lean towards the interpretation that ethusiastic participation is the way foward), everyone who has ever felt they have been raped or sexually abused is a symptom of a sickness in society, that needs to be sorted asap. I don't think trying to argue that the victim "shouldn't" feel that way is a reasonable fix, as any attempt to redefine the experience contradicts the emotions felt, and that simply isn't going to banish them. Therefore the only logical place meaningful change can occur is with men.

Jessicahyde85 · 18/10/2014 05:55

Have I missed something here, I was under the impression in this particular case ( not asking for a fight, I was honestly under the impression this was the case) That the woman had consensual sex with two men in a hotel after a few too many, then the next day decided that she had been too drunk to consent to the sex, not said no at the time/before being raped! Two very different scenarios.

If that was not the case, then the attitude of the media has been appalling, I have purposely avoided reading about this case, just heard the "headlines" about it, and that was the impression I got ( there are not many subject I avoid reading about but I didn't really want to get into this one, no particular reason for it) I also listened to LBC on the subject and was infuriated by the suggestion that silly little women cant possibly decided to have sex with someone if they have had a drink, a lot of women very much enjoy getting plastered and having a bunk up thanks!

YonicScrewdriver · 18/10/2014 07:10

Jessica, you have absolutely got it wrong.

Read this, it's fairly short and unemotional

www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evans

Jessicahyde85 · 18/10/2014 07:16

WOW!!! Thanks for that link, in that case the media are completely ridiculous! The impression given was that she revoked permission after the fact, not that she was so drunk that she had no memory of it!

Bloody hell what sort of world do we live in ffs!!!!

YonicScrewdriver · 18/10/2014 07:39

Yes, the media coverage and commentary on this has been terrible.

SJ2222 · 03/11/2014 09:44

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Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

FrauHelga · 03/11/2014 09:47

SJ2222 - does your academic supervisor know you're using Mumsnet to garner responses to your questionnaire?

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