Men have done such a number on us that even women don't even know what rape is

[cailindana]

Now I know Judy Finnegan is not a paragon of intellectual prowess.

But still, I would never have thought such stupidity could fall from her lips: www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-29598732

She said the rape was "not violent." So what was it then? Friendly? Enjoyable? Just a little game?

How how how how how do we live in a world where a woman can't recognise the extreme violence of having your body used by another person?

Oh look another 'rape' scenario from Brighton. Depends if he threatens her. Then it would be coercion. And then we go round in this endless fucking circle.

I find it interesting that you equate having sex with your partner as being recognised in a relationship.

Good grief 5madthings, so in your opinion is a man badgers his wife for sex then she isn't actually consenting freely and he is raping her?!

Of course he is - if a woman is not consenting freely, then it's rape. That's what rape is.

lol @ blueberry

How atrocious that women should take a dim view of men who pressurise women into sex and then fuck them when they finally cave even though they know the sex is unwanted!

The fact that someone would even express shock at the above attitude ^ displays nicely the mindset that I was talking about earlier re. getting consent via almost any means necessary and of course this attitude is incredibly corrosive in society and dangerous for women (and a subset of men and children also).

Strange - because a few posts ago you said it would be rape!

No, Brighton.

If the woman said, "I'm sorry, love, I've been distracted with work and the kids, I didn't realise it had got so seldom. I do enjoy having sex with you and want us to be closer". Then problem solved.

If the woman said "I'm sorry, love, I've been bloody exhausted with work and the kids, I know you do all you can to help but I'm just too tired. My big presentation will be over next week and they I'll be more relaxed and promise to focus on you". Then problem solved.

If the woman said "I'm sorry, love, I've been bloody exhausted with work and the kids, you won't lift a finger to help and frankly this does not make me want to have sex with you". Then the marriage has serious problems - a lazy entitled man who thinks domestic responsibilities aren't his problem. The problem here is that he is unlikely to realise he is reason he wife is disinterested in sex, and then go on to pester and whine. When she gives in due to exhaustion, that is rape. But a man who sees his wife as skivvy and domestic slave is equally unlikely to care about showing her respect and consideration in bed.

If the woman said "I'm sorry love, you're wonderful and I love you very much but I just don't want sex more often", we're back to the man being left with your options a) and b). He can try to talk his wife into seeking treatment or exploring what might get her in the mood (a romantic break away from the kids?), but any continued pressure for sex when she has clearly stated her position is coercion. And if she gives in to the coercion, it's rape.

How about we try it the other way.

So, are you saying that it is fine for a man to apply verbal, emotional and non-violent physical pressure in order to coerce a woman into having sex with him?

That that is definitely not rape and the law should be changed accordingly?

That as long as she has said "yes" at some point or simply stopped refusing then he has the "green light"...

Good grief...

etc etc etc

Anyone else got any hypotheticals they want to throw in there?

Sabrina, but because we are grown ups we are all capable of consenting under pressure.

I am not a fragile little flower who looses all cognitive ability the moment I am faced with pressure.

Pressure is not coercion, it is not duress. We all put pressure on each other all the time. People put pressure on the government to change laws - are you seriously saying these changes are not then valid because pressure? What about women who are positions of power, can they handle pressure?

This idea that all bets are off for women as soon as they are under pressure is the most damaging and corrosive idea when it comes to holding women back.

What it depressing is that posters think being badgered, pestered for sex is normal and if the women eventually consents then hey that's ok.

Fucking hell why do people think it's ok to put pressure on their partners for sex. Why is there such an expectation from some people that they are entitled to sex.

I am beginning to think dp is unusual, he wouldn't want to have sex with me if I am not up for it. He wouldn't pester or badger me for sex. The mere idea of it turns him off!! Sex is only fun and enjoyable when both parties are up for it.

Manipulating your partner into agreeing to sex by sulking, pestering, badgering and generally being a twat is not ok. It is abusive behaviour.

Why would you pressure someone into having sex with you Brighton?

Brighton - what 5madthings said.

5madthings - yes it is depressing. Yet here they are telling us that we look at men as being predatory.

"Sabrina, but because we are grown ups we are all capable of consenting under pressure.

I am not a fragile little flower who looses all cognitive ability the moment I am faced with pressure.."

So are you saying that the consumer protection around cooling off periods / signing contracts / etc should be abolished forthwith?

Good grief etc etc

So are you saying that the laws around coercion in a variety of areas need to be abolished forthwith?

Good grief etc etc

So are you saying that it is reasonable and acceptable behaviour for a man to pressure a woman by various means as long as physical violence is not involved and as long as she stops saying no it is fine for him to fuck her even when he knows she doesn't want it?

Good grief etc etc

So are you saying that you think it is fairly usual for women to have consensual sex and then regret it and then want to report the man to the police for rape?

Good grief etc etc

Any more for any more?

So are you saying that the current laws in place for the protection of vulnerable people / people in relationships with certain power dynamics from sexual predators should be changed?

Good grief etc etc

You aware that the current laws have enabled a number of predatory men to be imprisoned for the coercion of girls and yet you still want them changed?

Good grief etc etc

"And if she gives in to coercion, it's rape". That's where we disagree. I don't particularly feel like having sex very much at the minute because I'm pregnant. If my partner was to say to me "go on it's been ages since we've had sex" and I said I don't really feel like it tonight, then if he started kissing my neck and said "go on, let's have sex" and I then had sex with him, in your eyes that is rape. And that is ridiculous, and quite frankly insulting to someone who has been through the trauma of rape (and no, not the "traditional" pin down violent rape so" so yes I do know the bloody difference between sex and rape.)

Honestly I swear half the people here think every man is a sex hungry predator who pursues women.. Those views are more dangerous than the ones discussed IMO.

Sorry S7S - a few too many posts but to your post at 12:26 then my answer is that it may be reasonable, it may not be reasonable - there are two many possible scenarios!

But, reasonableness or otherwise - it doesn't constitute rape until it is coercion or duress! If you say someone can sleep with you because you are scared that they might leave you if you don't then they have not raped you - I'm sorry if you find that upsetting.

Blueberry: "And if she gives in to coercion, it's rape". That's where we disagree.

Check the law. If he is coercing her into sex, it's rape.

quite frankly insulting to someone who has been through the trauma of rape

Why? I think it's it's an insult to all women to think coercing women into sex is acceptable, somehow just part of life.

I'm also very sorry that your husband expects you to have sex when you don't want to.

You are making up what people are saying blueberry.

And coercion is a term that is used in our legal system and is taken as an aggravating factor in some offences including sexual ones.

Get your facts straight before you start frothing, maybe.

Or should I say

"ZOMG are you saying that the law should be changed to remove coercion as an aggravating factor? Good grief etc etc etc"

Go google and read the law maybe before you ponfiticate about things that you clearly do not have a full understanding of.

Blueberry, either you haven't read the thread or you're deliberately misunderstanding the whole thread, because I honestly cannot see how you believe a bit of kissing is the same as shouting, pestering, keeping someone awake etc.