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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men have done such a number on us that even women don't even know what rape is

597 replies

cailindana · 13/10/2014 20:56

Now I know Judy Finnegan is not a paragon of intellectual prowess.

But still, I would never have thought such stupidity could fall from her lips: www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-29598732

She said the rape was "not violent." So what was it then? Friendly? Enjoyable? Just a little game?

How how how how how do we live in a world where a woman can't recognise the extreme violence of having your body used by another person?

OP posts:
SevenZarkSeven · 16/10/2014 13:31

I don't find your posts upsetting Brighton!

Where on earth did you get that idea?

(From the same place you got all your other ideas maybe Grin)

cadno · 16/10/2014 13:33

Glancing at the threads it seems the issue of consent is still alive - I though you'd be interested in this below. It is the text of the summing up to the jury in a rape trial with a domestic situation

As a bit of background, the website it comes from is a resource for judges and advocates primarily (as for as I can see)- its in the public domain.

The arguments being had on this thread must be fairly similar to those had in the jury retiring room.
....

In R –v- Mohammad, June 18 1993 EWCA (No. 92/2762/W2) the following summing up by Pill J was commended as a model for cases of this nature. It is suggested that this could also be used for incidents within any established relationship.

The learned judge commenced his summing-up with the words:

"Members of the jury, the defendant and X had a long standing relationship, they lived together in Cardiff, they had two children and they had many acts of sexual intercourse."

Later, he then went on to say:

"It is a relevant fact (you may think) that they lived together (the defendant and Miss X) in a long standing relationship, relevant that is to the charge. When sexual intercourse occurs between a man and a woman your approach to the questions of consent which arise may well be different in a situation where the parties live together and have lived together for a long time from a situation where, for example, they have just met. The questions on the law of rape are the same in each case; but the answers will be given in the light of all the circumstances and all the evidence, including the fact that they have had a long standing relationship ..."

"In law a husband or a long-term or a short-term partner for that matter ... can be convicted of rape on his partner if the constituents of the offence are proved notwithstanding his relationship with the victim ..."

"In considering whether it is proved that the complainant Miss X did not consent, bear in mind when considering the evidence the relationship between them. When people enter into long-term relationships/marriage either within or outside marriage they usually contemplate regular sexual relations. In most partnerships, even not entirely happy ones, there is often give and take between the partners on sexual as on other matters. A female partner may not particularly want sexual intercourse on a particular occasion but because it is her husband or her partner who is asking for it she will consent to sexual intercourse. The fact that such consent is given reluctantly or out of a sense of duty to her partner, is still a consent."

"However, a woman is entitled to say 'no' and to refuse to consent even to her husband or long-term partner. There is a dividing line between a real consent on the one hand and a lack of consent or mere submission on the other. It is for you to decide whether the absence of consent is proved in this case applying your combined good sense, experience and knowledge of human nature and modern behaviour to all the relevant facts of the case."

MyEmpireOfDirt · 16/10/2014 13:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BlueberryWafer · 16/10/2014 13:37

Yes, silly me, I clearly know nothing about rape and the legal system. I must have imagined my court case. How silly of me.

Yes I have read the thread. Some posts say if a woman gives in to sex after ANY "badgering" as it was put, then it is rape. That is what I am disputing. What on earth do you keep saying good grief etc etc for? It's not actually funny you know...

MyEmpireOfDirt · 16/10/2014 13:39

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Mengog · 16/10/2014 13:41

I agree with the above. As a man sometimes, Im not in the mood to have sex (shock horror), and my partner is. After a bit of "persuasion" shall we say "too tired" becomes "go on then". I see nothing wrong with it.

Sometimes people have, sex or do sexual acts to make their partner happy, even if personally they are overly bothered. I don't think it always make it rape or sexual assault.

MyEmpireOfDirt · 16/10/2014 13:41

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SevenZarkSeven · 16/10/2014 13:42

Why does this keep getting dragged back to talk of the courts?

A tiny minority of rapes are even reported to the police! Of those that are reported a tiny minority get to court. And these are very frequently what some Important Philosophers might refer to as "serious" rapes, rather than the not very serious, easy mistake to make sort of rapes that Judy Finnigan and Alan Titchmarsh and Whoopie Goldberg sometimes like to comment on.

The women on this thread are (when not being dragged off on these tangents) talking about what is and isn't reasonable in a relationship, what the expectations are of men and women around sex in society, how to reduce the prevalence of rape, and (the subject of the OP) how loads of "proper" rapes are not even recognised as such by the victims for years, if ever, because of this corrosive view that if a man gets consent or even a lack of fight any which way except fairly extreme physcial violence then he is well within his rights to fuck her even if he knows fell well she doesn't want it and she is hating it and just wants him to finish already and get the fuck out of her body.

SevenZarkSeven · 16/10/2014 13:45

MyEmpireOfTheDirt yes that seemed contradictory to me as well.

But I wonder at the point of getting hauled off sideways to discuss what one judge said about one case in one court at one point.

I just get so frustrated with this constant badgering and demands for attention and so on.... Oh hold on.... Grin

Sabrinnnnnnnna · 16/10/2014 13:46

Blueberry and mengog - providing what you are describing doesn't involve coercion, emotional bullying, threats of leaving, berating, waking up and depriving of sleep - then it would fall into scenario 1 - which nobody thinks is rape.

So I think you can both relax there.

scallopsrgreat · 16/10/2014 13:49

So why would someone pressurise another into having sex, Brighton?

BlueberryWafer · 16/10/2014 13:49

MyEmpire that was a separate example. You're lumping 2 posts together.

To clarify: if a man says he will leave his wife if she doesn't sleep with him, or vice versa, that's blackmail which is not ok. If she says no and he continues to have sex with her then yes, that is rape (no one disputes that). But some of the scenarios described are that if a woman merely isn't in the mood and her husband pesters her then that is rape. That is what I am disputing. That is what I don't agree to be rape.

I think I am going to leave this thread now as it is quite emotive subject to me and I can't seem to get my point across the way I'm intending, so I'd like to respectfully bow out of further discussion.

cadno · 16/10/2014 13:51

MyEmpire

Isn't 'mere submission' what is described in the first statement? Consenting grudgingly out of duty is submission isn't it?

Because no-one can say where the dividing line, its left to the jury - 12 good men and women to decided. That's why you have them - to decided on the facts of the case.

SevenZarkSeven · 16/10/2014 13:55

No,

On the one hand he says that if she submits reluctantly or out of a sense of duty that is consent,
And on the other hand if it is "mere submission" that might be a problem

That is contradictory.
The direction is not consistent.

But I do question the point of talking about the words of one judge in one court in one case. Seems rather nit-picky especially in the light of the fact that the vast vast vast majority of rapists will never see a court.

cadno · 16/10/2014 14:01

s7s

What I was trying to show, was that the court hands over the role of deciding the facts to the jury - the last sentence is crucial.

cadno · 16/10/2014 14:07

...and it looks like here on this thread we have a classic hung jury - who wants to back and tell the court that we cant reach an unanimous verdict ? Acquittal for the defendant....?

Sabrinnnnnnnna · 16/10/2014 14:28

the vast vast vast majority of rapists will never see a court.

This is all too true. We need to worry about (and challenge) the attitudes of men who are comfortable coercing/bullying/blackmailing women into sex - and those of women who excuse this and think it's acceptable.

Sabrinnnnnnnna · 16/10/2014 14:28

Or men who blame it on hormones Hmm

cadno · 16/10/2014 14:31
Smile
Sabrinnnnnnnna · 16/10/2014 14:32
Biscuit
MrsBuffyCockhead · 16/10/2014 14:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

YonicScrewdriver · 16/10/2014 14:49

"consenting is not the same as wanting though. We all consent to things we don't want all the time. Taxes, operations, this does mean a crime has been committed against us!"

What?

Paying tax is the law. Having an operation to improve your health may well be a necessity.

Penetration neither improves health nor is the law.

Would you like your bed partner to moan and complain and toss and turn in bed and put on the light and talk to you and essentially ruin your sleep and impact your job because you did not want their penis in your mouth? Imagine said partner is Evander Holyfield or someone else who is physically stronger than you.

Is that the same as paying tax, this unwanted penis in your mouth?

cailindana · 16/10/2014 15:04

Brighton clearly believes sex is something women are duty bound to endure, like taxes and operations. When you are dealing with such a basely misogynistic mindset all argument I fruitless.

OP posts:
cailindana · 16/10/2014 15:04

is fruitless

OP posts:
PetulaGordino · 16/10/2014 15:11

i wonder whether if you replaced all the scenarios with a gay couple the reaction would be different?