Men have done such a number on us that even women don't even know what rape is

[cailindana]

Now I know Judy Finnegan is not a paragon of intellectual prowess.

But still, I would never have thought such stupidity could fall from her lips: www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-29598732

She said the rape was "not violent." So what was it then? Friendly? Enjoyable? Just a little game?

How how how how how do we live in a world where a woman can't recognise the extreme violence of having your body used by another person?

I've been thinking about this "pressuring for sex" (scenario 1) and I can't image my DH ever even vaguely pressuring me into sex. He will nuzzle at me, I'll say "not tonight, sorry". And that will be the end of the story. He respects that no means no, always and absolutely. Not that no might turn into yes if he tries a bit harder.

If there is never a clear line between what means no and what means yes, if a bit of persuasion might get you that sex, at what point does suggesting turn into pestering turn into coercion turn into rape? What amount of pressure is okay and what amount is not?

How can a relationship even be truly respectful and equal if you think that the other person a) doesn't know their own mind and you know better than them what they want or b) you think that what you want matters more, even if what you want is something done to their body?

It's abhorrent. How can we even have a clear definition of rape if we can't even decide at which point "no" should be accepted as an answer. "No" should always, absolutely be accepted as an answer. No persuasion. No pestering. Ever.

Social interaction will cease !...who said that ? it'll be on the internet somewhere.

Sure, Buffy, I've certainly had that happen too - he'll nuzzle me, I'll think (note, not, say), meh, but I'll enjoy it once we get going. And usually, yes I will enjoy it. Sometimes I'll find I'm just not getting into it, and usually DH will pick this up and ask if I'm okay before I say anything about just not finding my mojo that particular time. But should the word "no" ever pass my lips in any form, I can't imagine DH accepting that at anything less than absolute face value. And utterly respecting it. I might feel bad that he is missing out and make it up to him the following night, but that will come 100% from me and not from him making me feel obliged or guilty.

Is one of the problems that we still have this fallacy that nice girls say no a few times because they don't want to be seen as "easy". It was certainly the case back in the 80s when I was growing up that myself and my friends were expected to say no a few times, even if we were keen to engage in sexual relations. Now I'm a confident older woman I have no problem doing this, but I despair of the mixed messages I was giving out because of societal expectations.

It's back to the issue of positive and enthusiastic consent. We need to "allow" our young women not to think they will be seen as cheap just because they are unafraid to vocalise when they do and don't want sex

|Annie I was reading your post when you talk about your relationship "I've been thinking about this "pressuring for sex" (scenario 1) and I can't image my DH ever even vaguely pressuring me into sex. He will nuzzle at me, I'll say "not tonight, sorry". And that will be the end of the story. He respects that no means no, always and absolutely. Not that no might turn into yes if he tries a bit harder. "

And I thought, well quite, and apart from anything else it is hardly unknown for women to instigate sex is it! And if a woman instigates sex then clearly she's consenting!

And yet this never gets touched on.

It seems that the whole conversation is around some kind of victorian idea where

All men want lots of sex all the time
All women don't like sex really but will do it and maybe enjoy it a bit sometimes
It is up to men to approach the woman for sex and probably get rebuffed as men's sex drives are higher than women's and men are proactive and women are passive
It is up to men to persuade recalcitrant women so that they can have what they want as it's a hormonal imperative and after all for the woman it's just a mild annoyance and anyway if she wants to keep her man she needs to give it up sometimes
if a man pushes it a bit who can blame him really given all the above
That said he needs to be careful as lesbian feminazis are trying to put all men who behave like this ^ which is perfectly reasonable behaviour in prison with no trial

Does that sum it up at all?

All this guff about "men can't be expected to be able to tell whether a woman is into it or not" " men can't be expected to check in with a new partner to see if they are having a good time" "men applying pressure and fucking women who they know don't want to be fucked is fine because hormones" is all just poppycock isn't it.

"It was certainly the case back in the 80s when I was growing up that myself and my friends were expected to say no a few times, even if we were keen to engage in sexual relations."

This wasn't the experience in the 90s where I grew up, at least IME and talking to my friends.

It is one of those things that I suspect would vary enormously between different areas / social groups / backgrounds and all the rest of it.

i once had a conversation with a man who said he wished that women had erections, because then you would know when they wanted sex or not

ooooookkkkkkk

(to clarify, i don't think he meant actual erections, just something as visually obvious as a signal)

YY worldgonecrazy and seven, you're both exactly right. The sexual revolution happened in the 60s, but still there is this hangup that even if you want to say yes, you should say no just a little bit so as not to be seen as easy.

Laws and definitions and all the rest of that aside, it's attitudes and stereotypes and mixed messages need to end. Sex is fun, men like it, women like it, everyone needs to say what they mean, mean what they say and join in the fun with enthusiastic consent. And this is what we need to teach children, both boy children and girl children, as they enter the great adventure of sex.

YY and even in the case of an expectation to say no, if the person in question is saying that while licking your face off and shoving their hand down your trousers then clearly there is room for manoevre

Although actually stopping would still be good. And presumably would result in a "FFS what are you doing?" from the other!

Meanwhile a woman who is saying yes while lying dead still with her eyes screwed shut and shaking shouldn't be taken as a yes by any reasonable person surely.

I also can only presume that the men who claim not to be able to tell if women are into it or not, are hopelessly bad in bad.

And/or only having sex with people who don't really want to be having sex with them.

well indeed. i chose not to have sex with him, anyway

YY worldgonecrazy and seven, you're both exactly right. The sexual revolution happened in the 60s, but still there is this hangup that even if you want to say yes, you should say no just a little bit so as not to be seen as easy.

Totally agree.

This concept that women being the 'gatekeepers of sex' is absolute crap and needs to be consigned to the dim and distant past.

Yes, there we have it. This is what I meant with the enthusiastic consent, because I do want sex and am very capable of showing and voicing when I do. If my current partner did not respond Equally enthusiastic we would not progress, and so on.
There was no falsely demure no-ing during my time with ex-partner, who never the less felt so entitled to sex that any no of mine was blithely ignored as valid. (Was I not adult enough about it, I wonder?)
Anyway, it is an important thing to discuss and repeat.

Ignorer as not valid...

Yonic - if your partner turning the light on and talking is enough to make you feel under so much duress you are afraid to do anything other that fuck them, I am afraid you have a problem. Tell him to shut up.

What on earth does size have to do with it.. Should all women who go to bed with rugby players get on their backs if they sulk incase they get decked? Do you honestly think men are that violent as a rule - even if they have never displayed violent behaviour?

I'm the one with the problem?

Wow.

Look, I'm assuming you are male and that therefore you do not understand that there is an inherent underlying physical threat when someone more powerful than you is trying to find ways to get you to do what they want, pestering you, not letting you sleep etc.

Not all men, as you have chosen to misread my post. But someone who is disrespecting your wishes enough to act like Buffy's scenario 2 is at a high threat level of physically overpowering you.

Hence my use of EH.

I am sorry you feel understanding can only come from agreeing with your opinions.

...to try and give you some understanding of why "shut up, I'm going to sleep" might not be as straightforward as you think.

Are you male, by the way?