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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Depressing report - anal sex in under 18s

358 replies

noblegiraffe · 19/08/2014 17:45

bmjopen.bmj.com/content/4/8/e004996.full

The link goes into much more detail but the gist is:

"First, some men's narratives suggested that mutuality and consent for anal sex were not always a priority for them. Interviewees often spoke casually about penetration where women were likely to be hurt or coerced (“you can rip 'em if you try and force anal sex”; “you just keep going till they get fed up and let you do it anyway”), suggesting that not only do they expect coercion to be part of anal sex (in general, even if not for themselves personally), but that many of them accept or at least do not explicitly challenge it. Some events, particularly the ‘accidental’ penetration reported by some interviewees, were ambiguous in terms of whether or not they would be classed as rape (ie, non-consensual penetration), but we know from Jack's interview that ‘accidents’ may happen on purpose.

Second, women being badgered for anal sex appears to be considered normal.

Third, the commonly circulating ideas that ‘everyone’ enjoys it, and that women who do not are either flawed or simply keeping their enjoyment secret, help support the erroneous idea that a man pushing for anal sex is simply ‘persuading’ his partner to do something that ‘most girls would like’. Even Alicia's narrative contains some of the apparently coercive features of anal sex that other women report in negative terms, despite Alicia reporting enjoying anal sex.

Fourth, anal sex today appears to be a marker of (hetero)sexual achievement or experience, particularly for men.18 The society which our interviewees inhabit seems to reward men for sexual experience per se (‘every hole's a goal’) and, to some extent, rewards women for compliance with sexually ‘adventurous’ acts (enjoyment signifying not being naive, unrelaxed, etc), although women must balance this with the risk to their reputation. Women may also be under pressure to appear to enjoy or choose certain sexual practices: Gill describes a ‘postfeminist sensibility’ in contemporary media, where women are expected to present themselves as having chosen behaviours that conform to a stereotype of heterosexual male fantasy.24 The common portrayal of anal heterosex in terms of men breaking women's resistance can be compared with narratives about first vaginal intercourse25 and perhaps have superseded them to some degree in the British context where premarital vaginal intercourse is considered normal and so perhaps less of a ‘conquest’.

Fifth, many men do not express concern about possible pain for women, viewing it as inevitable. Less painful techniques (such as slower penetration) were rarely discussed."

OP posts:
poguemahon · 20/08/2014 20:37

"Girls need to be taught that they can and should say no to anything that they don't want to do, and that it doesn't make them uncool"

Actually, I'd argue that girls (and boy) need to be taught that it doesn't matter whether someone else things that their own decisions make them uncool or not. What is important is making decisions that you, as an individual, are comfortable with and not following the crowd in order to conform with an ideal like 'cool'.

FloraFox · 20/08/2014 20:37

So if I say I like it, it makes it impossible for young women to say no.

No but by popping up to say "some women love it" you're contributing to an environment that tells young women "if you were less of a prude you might like it to". Before you jump to ridiculous conclusions, please note I said "contributing to".

This thread is about a report about coercion and girls feeling pressured into doing something that is not pleasurable for them. If it was about girls feeling pressured into being slapped in the face while having sex and this becoming expected of young girls in pretty much every sexual encounter, would it be okay to jump up and say "I love being slapped in the face during sex"? How is that helpful?

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 20:39

You think that you literally as an individual are to blame for the increase in coerced sex amongst teens?

I would say the picture is rather more complex than that. In fact I've said it twice Grin

It is a whole toxic combination of pressures from all sorts of directions that is leading to increasing prevalence of coerced sex and yes coerced more risky sex amongst young people.

It's not about one adult woman saying "In my private sex life I like anal sex", while at the same time loading with caveats around consent, techinique and sexual maturity. Is it.

FloraFox · 20/08/2014 20:40

AF I feel we are on the verge of hearing how to do it right if not with lube. Please God, no.

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 20:42

Don't forget the how-to videos people!

scallopsrgreat · 20/08/2014 20:46

Consent is only part of what needs tackling. Why do boys think it's OK to hurt girls? Why do they think that their desires come before and above the well being of girls?

I think SevenZarkseven sums it up: "I also note that the risk of harm invariable seems to weight more heavily on the female."

It's not the boys ending up in hospital. The onus should be on them to stop hurting girls.

And no you aren't the only one put off posting. It's all a bit creepy.

scallopsrgreat · 20/08/2014 20:46

That last sentence was to AF.

AnyFucker · 20/08/2014 20:48

it's like Overshare Central in here, how it addresses the themes in the OP I have no idea at all

expatinscotland · 20/08/2014 20:48

Yes, just send them all to Wicked first so they will learn to love it up the arse.

scallopsrgreat · 20/08/2014 20:48

Plus consent is contextual. You have to understand what you are consenting to and the risks. Just like other sexual activities.

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 20:52

Clearly the fact that children are watching what would have been considered 40 years ago to be pretty hardcore porn from the age of about 11 is going to affect how their sexuality and sexual relationships develop.

I mean it's just completely obvious isn't it?

There has been study after study after study showing the frequent porn users get desensitised (sometimes literally!) watching ever more extreme things to get the same impact. Ever more extreme in the context of het porn generally translates to ever more extreme (higher risk of pain and/or injury) for the females.

There have been studies that show that regular exposure to porn messes with the way bits of the brain develop/are (early stages I guess but still it's still being looked at).

There are studies with young people saying they feel pressured into doing stuff because of porn.

Anyone who thinks exposing young children to copious amounts of porn doesn't affect them is nuts, quite frankly.

If an adult shows a child porn it is considered grooming FGS. You can't get more straightforward than that.

CaptChaos · 20/08/2014 20:58

I don't see how you can say that it's nothing to do with consent. These boys are failing to gain consent. Some don't seem to think that it matters. We must teach them that consent is everything. Without consent, you are not having sex, you are committing rape.

You proved my point in a way. The article has nothing to do with consent, it is about men's entitlement, male violence and male privilege. The fact that you enjoy it means precisely nothing in the face of that. It is in every way about male violence, the lack of consent is merely incidental.

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 21:06

I agree with Chaos.

If a person does something to another person that they expect to hurt them, that is violent, isn't it. The boys in the report expected to hurt the girls, the girls expected to be hurt. That is violence. We could at this point talk about how many people enjoy a bit of pain in their consensual sex lives. Some people enjoy a lot of pain in their consensual sex lives. Which is up to them of course. But again something I would argue is best left to more sexually mature experienced people, rather than something to have a crack at straight off the bat.

And of course the blokes are often getting consent, after a fashion. They are going on about it until she says yes, telling her that everyone else is doing it and they like it so why not, that they are boring if they don't give it a try, why not etc etc etc

So in a way they know all about consent. The type of consent which means something in our society i.e. "she said yes" at some point and so that is good enough.

scallopsrgreat · 20/08/2014 21:12

YY Chaos. Exactly what I was getting at. It is the attitude of the boys and men that needs tackling.

MostWicked · 20/08/2014 21:17

Anal sex, done properly, should not hurt. How is stating that as a fact, pressuring anyone into doing it? If it does hurt, then the people doing it need to stop immediately because something it wrong, and the thing that might be wrong, is the girls might not want to do it.
Girls are doing it expecting it to hurt - they need to know that pain is a sign that something is wrong and that means stop.

Consent is NOT passive. That's part of the problem, there is a lack of understanding about what consent is. That is what we should be teaching our boys. The absence of a yes or no, is not consent. That's exactly what the videos I linked to earlier stress. Saying nothing means no. Saying, 'ok, if you want to' means no. Consent MUST be active and enthusiastic to mean anything at all. Any less means no. There must be no room for confusion or misunderstandings or coercion or diminished capacity.

And banning porn is not the solution because it is completely, totally and utterly unworkable, so even if in theory, it's the perfect answer, it is not a solution because it is not possible.
Education IS possible.

What's wrong with telling young women and men that 99.9% of women will hate this and men shouldn't ask for it. Young men should be told that the very act of asking for it makes them boundary violators and borderline, if not actual, rapists.
What's wrong with it is that it is lies.
99.9% of women will hate it, you know that for a fact do you? Whilst it will likely be a minority preference, you cannot claim that 99.9% of women will hate it. I dare say that most women aren't into BDSM, but some are and actively enjoy it.
And the act of asking for it is borderline rape?
Boundary violators? Whose boundaries? Yours? Who gave you the right to decide what other people shouldn't do?
We cannot lie to our teenagers, they are not stupid. Tell them that most women don't do it because they don't want to. Tell them that what they see in porn is not real life. Porn cuts out all of the boring bits, including consent and foreplay. Porn actors are paid to pretend to enjoy it. Tell them the risks, tell them that it is not something that anyone should every do if they don't actively want to do it. Tell them that any sexual act that happens, requires the active and enthusiastic consent of both people. Tell them that anal sex is more complicated than vaginal sex and that you can't just leap into it or you could hurt yourself. Tell them where they can find the factual information that you don't know.

CaptChaos · 20/08/2014 21:20

Oh my god.....

PacificDogwood · 20/08/2014 21:20

I agree with Chaos too

But I see where MostWicked is coming from - However I think that you are not likely to be a 16-18 year old girl looking for first sexual experiences?
I suspect that you are perfectly able to give or withhold consent Grin

Yy that it is the attitudes of the male of the species that needs addressing - IMVstronglyheldO not just in the sexual arena, but in many other social encounter.
Mutual respect and consideration would make issues of consent less of an important discussion.

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 21:25

MostWicked you seem to keep arguing against things that people have not said.

e.g.

"Banning porn isn't the solution". Who brought up the idea of banning porn on this thread? You. So you are arguing against something that no-one had at that point suggested (unless my search facility is up the spout). Furthermore, the idea of "banning porn" is incredibly vague (what sort of porn? all of it? topless stuff? written porn?) and pretty impossible, given that the internet is a global entity with little control due to it's nature. So you are accusing people on the thread, of calling for something that no-one has said, and that I think people would be pretty unlikely to say as bluntly as that for the reasons I just gave because we're not on the whole, you know, stupid and going around shouting "ban porn" while reading 50 shades of grey and failing to understand anything about the nature of the internet.

So, you know. Stop arguing against things that people aren't saying.

People have not said "Ban Porn"
Nor have they said that women who enjoy consensual anal sex are "disgusting"
Nor have they suggested that a good way of sorting this problem out would be to tell children "scare stories" about various sex acts

It is really annoying please stop it.

scallopsrgreat · 20/08/2014 21:27

Yeah thanks for telling us what consent is about MostWicked. None of us have ever thought about that. Ever.

Just wondering why you are so keen for women to enjoy anal sex MostWicked?

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 21:29

You see some of what you says makes sense but then a whole bunch of it is assuming that people on this thread hold views that actually they don't, and then arguing against them.

AnyFucker · 20/08/2014 21:29

Most importantly why is MW so keen for 16 yo girls to enjoy anal sex ?

scallopsrgreat · 20/08/2014 21:31

In fact I'll rephrase my question.

I wonder why you are so keen for women to have anal sex?

JohnFarleysRuskin · 20/08/2014 21:31

It seems unlike the rest of us, Mostwicked read an article that said 16-18 year old girls really are desperate to have anal sex but need help to do it right.
How extraordinary to interpret the findings in that way.

scallopsrgreat · 20/08/2014 21:31

And yy AF!

PacificDogwood · 20/08/2014 21:32

AF, I thought you had left?!

I think the rise in expected anal intercourse is a symptom of the malaise, not the actual problem in itself. Which is male entitlement and expectation.

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